Brothers in arms 40th anniversary edition

[Mossguitar]

I listened to the interview with Omar once more, and he says that he played the fills. And since he actually was the there, I take that as a fact.

Well, Terry said the fills are his here: https://archive.org/details/modern-drummer-issue-79/page/n63/mode/2up?q=dire+straits

And Neil Dorfsman here: https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing-372507

Both were there, and it's two versus one... So they are more likely to be Terry's.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. Thanks for the links! Cool.

[Ingrained]

I listened to the interview with Omar once more, and he says that he played the fills. And since he actually was the there, I take that as a fact.

Well, Terry said the fills are his here: https://archive.org/details/modern-drummer-issue-79/page/n63/mode/2up?q=dire+straits

And Neil Dorfsman here: https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing-372507

Both were there, and it's two versus one... So they are more likely to be Terry's.

Thanks for the links.

I wonder if there is the possibility that they used the same click track, the same project/tape, and put Omar on other new unused tracks, rather than replacing Terrys or starting a new project, whilst MK recorded a guide guitar part, just so it felt like it was a new recording to Omar, all whilst keeping Terry’s tracks (muted), and the rest of the band (muted) that they could then mix in together later on. Without Omar really being told or aware? A more non-destructive approach so they had more options for mixing later maybe? I suppose that is if they got Omar to do a take without any toms as well?

[nv1]

I listened to the interview with Omar once more, and he says that he played the fills. And since he actually was the there, I take that as a fact.

Well, Terry said the fills are his here: https://archive.org/details/modern-drummer-issue-79/page/n63/mode/2up?q=dire+straits

And Neil Dorfsman here: https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing-372507

Both were there, and it's two versus one... So they are more likely to be Terry's.

Thanks for the links.

I wonder if there is the possibility that they used the same click track, the same project/tape, and put Omar on other new unused tracks, rather than replacing Terrys or starting a new project, whilst MK recorded a guide guitar part, just so it felt like it was a new recording to Omar, all whilst keeping Terry’s tracks (muted), and the rest of the band (muted) that they could then mix in together later on. Without Omar really being told or aware? A more non-destructive approach so they had more options for mixing later maybe? I suppose that is if they got Omar to do a take without any toms as well?

That would have been possible if they had at least two 24-track tape machines, with which they could create slave reels with individual elements and so on... And select the best bits

But in Dire Straits' case on BIA, they had only one 24-track digital recorder at hand, which they cut the whole album on. Plus, they were out in Montserrat and thousands of miles away from any replacements...

Drums would take a lot of the tracks on the 24-track: at least 9 or 10 for a single drum performance - kick, snare, hi-hat, 2 toms, 2 overhead, 2 room mics...
Basically, there wouldn't be enough room on tape to keep both Terry's and Omar's drum performances in full... Hence decisions have to be made as to what bits to keep and what to remove, to allow space on tape for other overdubs.

With Terry, they felt they didn't have the right feel with his drum parts so they were mostly erased, allowing room for Omar to add his parts.

Hope that makes sense! Without trying to be too technical.

[wayaman]

I listened to the interview with Omar once more, and he says that he played the fills. And since he actually was the there, I take that as a fact.

Well, Terry said the fills are his here: https://archive.org/details/modern-drummer-issue-79/page/n63/mode/2up?q=dire+straits

And Neil Dorfsman here: https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing-372507

Both were there, and it's two versus one... So they are more likely to be Terry's.

Thanks for the links.

I wonder if there is the possibility that they used the same click track, the same project/tape, and put Omar on other new unused tracks, rather than replacing Terrys or starting a new project, whilst MK recorded a guide guitar part, just so it felt like it was a new recording to Omar, all whilst keeping Terry’s tracks (muted), and the rest of the band (muted) that they could then mix in together later on. Without Omar really being told or aware? A more non-destructive approach so they had more options for mixing later maybe? I suppose that is if they got Omar to do a take without any toms as well?

That would have been possible if they had at least two 24-track tape machines, with which they could create slave reels with individual elements and so on... And select the best bits

But in Dire Straits' case on BIA, they had only one 24-track digital recorder at hand, which they cut the whole album on. Plus, they were out in Montserrat and thousands of miles away from any replacements...

Drums would take a lot of the tracks on the 24-track: at least 9 or 10 for a single drum performance - kick, snare, hi-hat, 2 toms, 2 overhead, 2 room mics...
Basically, there wouldn't be enough room on tape to keep both Terry's and Omar's drum performances in full... Hence decisions have to be made as to what bits to keep and what to remove, to allow space on tape for other overdubs.

With Terry, they felt they didn't have the right feel with his drum parts so they were mostly erased, allowing room for Omar to add his parts.

Hope that makes sense! Without trying to be too technical.

Nah, if you use the toms by Terry you don't need channels for Omar toms...

[dustyvalentino]

No idea what happened, but mixing and matching seems unnecessarily complicated, especially if you only have 24 tracks to play with.

Could it be that when Terry/Neil say Terry's toms were used, they are referring to the intro only?

[wayaman]

No idea what happened, but mixing and matching seems unnecessarily complicated, especially if you only have 24 tracks to play with.

Could it be that when Terry/Neil say Terry's toms were used, they are referring to the intro only?

Makes sense

[Ingrained]

I listened to the interview with Omar once more, and he says that he played the fills. And since he actually was the there, I take that as a fact.

Well, Terry said the fills are his here: https://archive.org/details/modern-drummer-issue-79/page/n63/mode/2up?q=dire+straits

And Neil Dorfsman here: https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing-372507

Both were there, and it's two versus one... So they are more likely to be Terry's.

Thanks for the links.

I wonder if there is the possibility that they used the same click track, the same project/tape, and put Omar on other new unused tracks, rather than replacing Terrys or starting a new project, whilst MK recorded a guide guitar part, just so it felt like it was a new recording to Omar, all whilst keeping Terry’s tracks (muted), and the rest of the band (muted) that they could then mix in together later on. Without Omar really being told or aware? A more non-destructive approach so they had more options for mixing later maybe? I suppose that is if they got Omar to do a take without any toms as well?

That would have been possible if they had at least two 24-track tape machines, with which they could create slave reels with individual elements and so on... And select the best bits

But in Dire Straits' case on BIA, they had only one 24-track digital recorder at hand, which they cut the whole album on. Plus, they were out in Montserrat and thousands of miles away from any replacements...

Drums would take a lot of the tracks on the 24-track: at least 9 or 10 for a single drum performance - kick, snare, hi-hat, 2 toms, 2 overhead, 2 room mics...
Basically, there wouldn't be enough room on tape to keep both Terry's and Omar's drum performances in full... Hence decisions have to be made as to what bits to keep and what to remove, to allow space on tape for other overdubs.

With Terry, they felt they didn't have the right feel with his drum parts so they were mostly erased, allowing room for Omar to add his parts.

Hope that makes sense! Without trying to be too technical.

I’m not suggesting that they “kept” Terry’s full kit, just that they may have managed to squeeze Omar on new unused tracks and then went back and overdubbed Terry’s tracks with guitars and keys etc later on. And then when listening back they realised Terry’s toms worked additionally in the mix with Omar’s. Maybe it was a eureka moment, or nice surprise, in the playback. Maybe they had initially planned that the song didn’t need toms either, once using Omar, who has also mentioned that he favoured hi hats to "turn the page" rather than a roll.

Dorfsman has described the Mosserrat live room as hard to isolate, so maybe he didn’t even bother with room mics. Maybe he just squeezed snare, hi hats, kick and maybe an overhead onto some free tracks for Omar.....

Neil Dorfsman:
"The actual recording space was very small-maybe 20 by 30, with a low ceiling-so even though there was excellent equipment and it was a nice place to work, it was difficult to cut in there as a band. It was hard to get any isolation on anybody, and the room didn’t have a ‘sound’ really, so we always close-miked everything. But anything that went through that board sounded really good.”

I don’t think they set out to “mix and match” because it would make things complicated and also potentially may not work or cause a problem later on. It could be that they had Terry’s full kit and Omar’s take and then mixed in Terry’s toms, and overdubbed guitar/keys over the rest of Terry’s kit. Maybe.

[Mossguitar]

No idea what happened, but mixing and matching seems unnecessarily complicated, especially if you only have 24 tracks to play with.

Could it be that when Terry/Neil say Terry's toms were used, they are referring to the intro only?

That’s what I thought at first, but Neil says «Actually, on ‘Money for Nothing’ we kept Terry’s toms and the tom fills throughout the song, but everything else is Omar.» And Terry says almost exactly the same: «it's Omar playing the straight beat and all the drum fills are me.»

[nv1]

No idea what happened, but mixing and matching seems unnecessarily complicated, especially if you only have 24 tracks to play with.

Could it be that when Terry/Neil say Terry's toms were used, they are referring to the intro only?

In case I didn't make it clearer, I don't think it was so much mixing and matching though from what I gather.

What I'm saying is, they kept what they wanted of Terry's drums on "Money For Nothing", wiped the rest before Omar was involved and brought Omar to simply fill the gaps. That's what Neil Dorfsman is suggesting in interviews, that it was down to Omar to salvage the record (and the drums)...

[wayaman]

If you have 24 channels, you can record drums in different channels, mix the drums in two channels for the final mix. And do the same for every of other instrument, that way you make a lot of just 24.

[nv1]

If you have 24 channels, you can record drums in different channels, mix the drums in two channels for the final mix. And do the same for every of other instrument, that way you make a lot of just 24.

Ok, but there's a bit of a problem with that...
You can't change the snare drum levels, apply noise gating, EQ or isolate the individual parts to put effects... And you're basically stuck with it for good. That's not the way it usually worked in those days unless you had only 4 or 8 tracks to work with on tape (i.e. Beatles days).

Maybe they did create a stereo reference mix of Terry's drums on the 24-track for Omar to listen to. But it would be hard to completely isolate Terry's tom-tom fills from that stereo mix alone...

[nv1]

I listened to the interview with Omar once more, and he says that he played the fills. And since he actually was the there, I take that as a fact.

Well, Terry said the fills are his here: https://archive.org/details/modern-drummer-issue-79/page/n63/mode/2up?q=dire+straits

And Neil Dorfsman here: https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing-372507

Both were there, and it's two versus one... So they are more likely to be Terry's.

Thanks for the links.

I wonder if there is the possibility that they used the same click track, the same project/tape, and put Omar on other new unused tracks, rather than replacing Terrys or starting a new project, whilst MK recorded a guide guitar part, just so it felt like it was a new recording to Omar, all whilst keeping Terry’s tracks (muted), and the rest of the band (muted) that they could then mix in together later on. Without Omar really being told or aware? A more non-destructive approach so they had more options for mixing later maybe? I suppose that is if they got Omar to do a take without any toms as well?

That would have been possible if they had at least two 24-track tape machines, with which they could create slave reels with individual elements and so on... And select the best bits

But in Dire Straits' case on BIA, they had only one 24-track digital recorder at hand, which they cut the whole album on. Plus, they were out in Montserrat and thousands of miles away from any replacements...

Drums would take a lot of the tracks on the 24-track: at least 9 or 10 for a single drum performance - kick, snare, hi-hat, 2 toms, 2 overhead, 2 room mics...
Basically, there wouldn't be enough room on tape to keep both Terry's and Omar's drum performances in full... Hence decisions have to be made as to what bits to keep and what to remove, to allow space on tape for other overdubs.

With Terry, they felt they didn't have the right feel with his drum parts so they were mostly erased, allowing room for Omar to add his parts.

Hope that makes sense! Without trying to be too technical.

I’m not suggesting that they “kept” Terry’s full kit, just that they may have managed to squeeze Omar on new unused tracks and then went back and overdubbed Terry’s tracks with guitars and keys etc later on. And then when listening back they realised Terry’s toms worked additionally in the mix with Omar’s. Maybe it was a eureka moment, or nice surprise, in the playback. Maybe they had initially planned that the song didn’t need toms either, once using Omar, who has also mentioned that he favoured hi hats to "turn the page" rather than a roll.

Dorfsman has described the Mosserrat live room as hard to isolate, so maybe he didn’t even bother with room mics. Maybe he just squeezed snare, hi hats, kick and maybe an overhead onto some free tracks for Omar.....

Neil Dorfsman:
"The actual recording space was very small-maybe 20 by 30, with a low ceiling-so even though there was excellent equipment and it was a nice place to work, it was difficult to cut in there as a band. It was hard to get any isolation on anybody, and the room didn’t have a ‘sound’ really, so we always close-miked everything. But anything that went through that board sounded really good.”

I don’t think they set out to “mix and match” because it would make things complicated and also potentially may not work or cause a problem later on. It could be that they had Terry’s full kit and Omar’s take and then mixed in Terry’s toms, and overdubbed guitar/keys over the rest of Terry’s kit. Maybe.

As for the room mics, Neil said they used them to get some kind of room on the drums though the room acoustics were not as live as the Power Station was: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing

As for your points... Again, it depended how much room they had on tape to keep Terry's drum parts and record Omar's.
As I commented earlier, it's very possible they made a stereo submix of Terry's drums on the 24-track for Omar to listen to... And erased much of the isolated drum tracks from Terry's take except what they wanted to keep, so Omar could add his parts. But that's my thought.

If the drum parts are deemed unusable such that another drummer is needed, then why keep them on tape? Unless there are any salvageable bits.
That's what Neil Dorfsman is suggesting. That it was less so mix-and-match and it was more so Omar was filling the gaps and salvaging what was there...