Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[Chris W]

From what I know about drums, I guess that Chris is more straight rock style while the drumming on Planet was more jazzy in the sense of using a lo of tombs, hihats etc in betwen the playing.

Yes, Manu has that floaty drum groove, kind of African influenced. I can do it, but I'm just copying another drummer, not being myself.

[Chris W]

He loved to play simple "Rockpile" style drums, and was amazing whatever he played, but for this tour, Mark wanted him to play in a style that was more dramatic.

This is what I'm saying. You can ask why Terry played differently from Rockpile to Dire Straits and the answer is more about Mark's instructions (as the song writer and band leader) than it is about the drummer themself changing/evolving.

[Brunno Nunes]

I think we can see that besides Pick having to play louder due to the larger crowds in 1981, there are other elements that distinguish his playing in 1980/81 from his live performance in 1978/79. The nature of the songs changed according to the need for new arrangements, adjusting the songs for the keyboards and, with that, going further, expanding them, some more, some less. Inevitably, this would also affect the rhythm guitar. DK would have to deal with this if he remained. However, Hal played that role. In this context, it seems to me that Mark necessarily created a different type of dynamic with Hal live.

But, regarding the "change in the nature of the songs for the new Dire Straits in 1980," I'd like to do a brief analysis.

If we separate them into two groups, 1- The songs from the first two albums played live in 1980/1981 (Once Upon a Time in the West, Down to the Waterline, Lions, Single Handed Sailor, In The Gallery, News, SOS, Angel of Mercy, Portobello Belle, and Where Do You Think You're Going).

2- New songs: (Expresso Love, Skateaway, Romeo and Juliet, Tunnel of Love, Les Boys, Solid Rock, and Telegraph Road, before it was recorded in the studio)

We can note some interesting things that happened. In block 1, we have nine songs that the band already played in 1978/79, and in block 2, we have seven new songs for all but two, Solid Rock and Les Boys having already been played in 1979.

I much prefer Pick's approach for most of them. of the songs from the first two albums with that live format from 78/79, because for me, the nature of songs like "Single Handed Sailor," "In the Gallery," "Down to the Waterline," "News," and "Lions" are more aligned for a quartet, (in my opinion) not by chance, nor did these songs continue to the next step, the LOG tour 82/83 and Pick left the band. I like to appreciate Pick's new approach in this 80/81 tour, especially in "OUATITW." The groove was there, intact, however, he uses new elements in the intro and in another point of the song, a type of drumstick he used in the intro of "Water of Love" live (I don't know the name, but it seems to be padded at the tip. He did the same in the intro of "Tunnel of Love" live). "Lions" is another example I like; it kept the groove in evidence in 80, in 81 it changes a bit, as well as in "News" and "WDYTG." Anyway, overall, the new dimension that the band brings to these songs is something Which may please or displease many. I like most of the changes, but I prefer these songs live in 78/79. In fact, it was a different band, I think so.

Group 2 of songs has a different character; its nature already included the sound of keyboards; it was a new sound for the band. Pick's approach to Skateaway live is my favorite, a major highlight. However, in this group of songs from the MM album, we can draw a parallel with Terry. It seems to me that songs like Expresso Love and Solid Rock work much better with him live, the same for TOL. SOS is another song that, with the new format and for the new type of audience the band was playing to, was more suited to Terry.

So, I wonder what the experience of the 80/81 tour was like for Pick? Did it influence his departure from the band soon after the LOG album? The band that recorded the LOG album was the same one that did the 80/81 tour, even so, when I watch Alchemy I can't see Pick taking this next level. It's no coincidence that many of the songs from the first two albums were never played live again; it seems to me that these songs have a lot of Pick's DNA. On the other hand, Terry's arrival brought a new air, truly more suited to the band's current situation.

In the end, each member brought a distinct personality
during their time in the band; each passed the "torch" to their replacement to continue rotating songs. with their new format and new production, following the artistic direction of Mark and probably Alan Clark. As Ed mentioned, that's the magic; each lineup had its own sound.

The 1980/1981 tour is the point in the band where we have a bit of both worlds. It was the tour that laid the foundation for what followed. More than just a study, it's always a pleasure to appreciate the repertoire from the 1980/1981 tour, Dire Straits' most experimental phase.

[Robson]

I love your analyses, Brunno

...even so, when I watch Alchemy I can't see Pick taking this next level. It's no coincidence that many of the songs from the first two albums were never played live again; it seems to me that these songs have a lot of Pick's DNA. On the other hand, Terry's arrival brought a new air, truly more suited to the band's current situation"

I agree.

This might not be the right word, but for me Pick was more intimate.

[Brunno Nunes]

Well... Thanks for such great feedback, Ed, and don't worry, you don't need to change my point of view (although that's easily possible, it's a great privilege to read anything from the source), and I certainly don't want to change anyone's point of view.

I completely disagree with D being the "most important historically," etc. Sorry, that's just silly, you mean over their entire career?
YES, he was important on those songs at that point in time; that was the magic of THEN.

His departure on MM was no accident. Jimmy Iovine would likely have strangled him if the row hadn't happened. You can't isolate the playing from everything else, otherwise you'd have a rhythm guitarist strumming alone in a room with only his or her farts to break the monotony.
Could he have been as important as Hal, or Jack, or Phil, or later Richard? I don't think so.
Hal was right for his part, ditto the others.
But like you, that's just an opinion.

Yes, what I meant is that D seems to me to be the most important guitarist who played alongside M in DS, for the reasons I mentioned, not that that's relevant. Not by chance, but it reminded me of Dire Straits' induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2018. Despite having only one founding member, John, Mark, David, John, Pick, Alan, and Guy inducted. We know that the absence of three founding members from induction raises many questions, but wouldn't it have been strange if it had been Hal, Jack, or Phil in D's place for this occasion? Anyway, John declared at the ceremony:

"As a fellow member, I found I might be the most qualified one to do this. It's a bit weird, but life's strange. I know it's a little bit odd, but it's my honor to welcome Dire Straits into the Hall of Fame," he began. "I know there's been a lot of speculation about the fact that Mark isn't here, but I can assure you, it's just a personal thing. It's personal reasons, let's just leave it at that. This is really more about a group of people than one person; it's a collective, a brotherhood, and that's something that needs acknowledging tonight."

We can only imagine what an incredible thrill it would be for all the band's fans to see the founding members share the stage again, even if it were for the last time playing those songs, nearly 40 years later. Man... I'd have to watch it several times for it to sink in, because it would be unbelievable, Bob Dylan, Hank Marvin, or Clapton opening, talking about the band... What an incredible moment that didn't happen.

Even Pink Floyd managed to put aside their differences and reunited at Live 8, and the world got to witness that magic happen once again. It's a shame that the differences in Dire Straits' case were overwhelming, making any kind of reunion to celebrate the band's legacy impossible, even though the Universe offered the occasion and opportunity. However, each person is the master of their own destiny, and this must always be respected. What matters is that the legacy you built is crystallized in history and will endure over time, just like all the great bands of the 20th century. We still have the bootlegs, which will always provide us with a more intimate complement, expanding the horizon of what Dire Straits was like live, especially for fans like me who didn't have the privilege of seeing the band live when they were active.

Brazilian hot chocolate is good, second only to Swiss hot chocolate. A delicious dish from my region of Brazil is Cuscuz Nordestino, typical of the Northeast region of Brazil. It's made with corn flakes and pairs well with a variety of fillings, both sweet and savory. I recommend it, dear Ed. If you find it in Europe, don't hesitate. As they say here:

"It's so good you can swallow your tongue." 😋

All the best, Ed.🙌🏻

[Brunno Nunes]

I love your analyses, Brunno

...even so, when I watch Alchemy I can't see Pick taking this next level. It's no coincidence that many of the songs from the first two albums were never played live again; it seems to me that these songs have a lot of Pick's DNA. On the other hand, Terry's arrival brought a new air, truly more suited to the band's current situation"

I agree.

This might not be the right word, but for me Pick was more intimate.

Coming from someone who uses the Communiqué image, it's an honor, and I'm very happy to hear that.🙌🏻

I agree; that's a very fitting word. It's no wonder Pick mentioned that one of his favorite DS songs is "Wild West End." David himself has always performed this song on his tours since 2006 (incidentally, he gives an excellent rendition of "Wild West End").

I really notice that no one is more intimate with the songs from the first two albums than these four guys; they carry their DNA.🤌🏻

[Brunno Nunes]

Drumming-wise I was just trying to emulate Porcaro, Hakim and T Williams. I failed to really understand Pick as his playing was very different to mine and my mindset at the time was late 80's - which really was exemplified by Porcaro, Hakim, Newmark etc... The guys who played on so many record releases.

Maybe Pick was his own boss, but by the BIA tour (huge caveat - I wasn't there) my feeling is that Terry was told what to play. And at the very least, the fact he didn't play on the album they were promoting, he probably did his best to reproduce Hakim's parts and fills from the BIA album.
Likewise, I didn't bring my native style over to DS. I listened to the album versions of the songs Mark wanted to play on tour and tried to emulate the drumming from the recordings - sometimes failing (Sultans Of Swing!).
Planet Of New Orleans is not my way of playing drums.
So.... again.... for me the discussion should be more how the band changed between 1978 and 81, not how Pick's drumming changed.
Again though, interesting point about Mark's goals evolving and the audience and venues evolving, requiring more of a rock drummer, with presence and energy (Terry).

Hopefully this is not going too off topic of the thread but since you mention Terry, Tommy Mandell said of Terry on the LOG tour:

Terry Williams was the new drummer: we were the new guys, and we spent a lot of time together. His father had a band that Bonnie Tyler used to sing for, in the old days, in Wales! He loved to play simple "Rockpile" style drums, and was amazing whatever he played, but for this tour, Mark wanted him to play in a style that was more dramatic. He did it! He was a great guy too.

Just “more dramatic” is what I take from that quote from Tommy Mandell. I think that ties in with them developing “The Show” with all its dynamics and range, which we can see starting to develop from ’80 onwards.

I believe Tommy was responding to a question from the same "Brunno" as well?

https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=1542.15

Perfectly, I had the honor of getting this precious testimony from Tommy Mandel a few years ago. He was very kind and brought to light so many cool things from the time he was part of the band. Thanks for bringing it back; it's always good to reread it.

[Chris W]

Not by chance, but it reminded me of Dire Straits' induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2018.

The Hall Of Fame means very little in the UK music scene. It is largely an industry marketing exercise.
I think it's good Mark didn't go, he didn't need it, the music speaks for itself. I think John HAD to go because otherwise it would have been Alan and Guy picking up the honour, which would have been ridiculous.

[Brunno Nunes]

Not by chance, but it reminded me of Dire Straits' induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2018.

The Hall Of Fame means very little in the UK music scene. It is largely an industry marketing exercise.
I think it's good Mark didn't go, he didn't need it, the music speaks for itself. I think John HAD to go because otherwise it would have been Alan and Guy picking up the honour, which would have been ridiculous.

I mentioned this event illustratively, just to point out that they chose the original members for the induction and award presentation. When they considered who the members of Dire Straits would be, they came to this conclusion.

The music and its legacy speak for themselves. The event is of little significance, but it's undeniable that it would have been an occasion that, under different circumstances, could have been an opportunity for the band to share the stage for perhaps 20 minutes and create another memorable moment for history. It could have been at another more important or significant event. In short, it didn't happen and won't happen, we know.

[Chris W]

I mentioned this event illustratively, just to point out that they chose the original members for the induction and award presentation. When they considered who the members of Dire Straits would be, they came to this conclusion.

But you don't know who was invited. I think they should have invited Mark and John, arguably Mark, John, Pick and David.
That's it.

[Brunno Nunes]

I mentioned this event illustratively, just to point out that they chose the original members for the induction and award presentation. When they considered who the members of Dire Straits would be, they came to this conclusion.

But you don't know who was invited. I think they should have invited Mark and John, arguably Mark, John, Pick and David.
That's it.

Yes, we know, everyone knows that six members were invited: four founding members of the band and two keyboardists, Alan Clark and Guy Fletcher.

When I illustratively mentioned the DS members who were nominated for the RARHF, it was only to substantiate what I had mentioned earlier about my understanding that DK was the most important guitarist who played alongside MK in Dire Straits. That's all. I'm not questioning who should be nominated for the RARHF.

[dustyvalentino]

The whole thing was a farce and an embarrassment.

The only band ever who had to induct themselves because no one else would do it.

[Chris W]

Probably because it was clear the main man wasn't going to attend.

[Robson]

The whole thing was a farce and an embarrassment.

The only band ever who had to induct themselves because no one else would do it.

He didn't want to because there was no MK.

[Robson]

I mentioned this event illustratively, just to point out that they chose the original members for the induction and award presentation. When they considered who the members of Dire Straits would be, they came to this conclusion.

But you don't know who was invited. I think they should have invited Mark and John, arguably Mark, John, Pick and David.
That's it.

Yes, we know, everyone knows that six members were invited: four founding members of the band and two keyboardists, Alan Clark and Guy Fletcher.

When I illustratively mentioned the DS members who were nominated for the RARHF, it was only to substantiate what I had mentioned earlier about my understanding that DK was the most important guitarist who played alongside MK in Dire Straits. That's all. I'm not questioning who should be nominated for the RARHF.

I think the principle of selection is the first original lineup of the band.