Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[fan no more]

I live in two worlds. Knopflers and Springsteens. Pick could easily have been the Max Weinberg of DS. More often than not, I don't feel like I get invited to listen closely to the drums whenever I hear a song on the radio or whatever. The drums can be just fine and very solid, creating space for others to shine - but lack something that's unexpected to the ears and still works well. That little spark of artistry that makes you pay attention (like MKs guitar, if you will). Pick really had that in him. I have Setting me up from Rainbow in the regular's I put on, and every so often I catch myself paying more attention to the drums than the guitar outside of solos. That doesn't happen often with any Knopfler related tune, at least for me. Especially when it comes to something that's not really up front to begin with.

Every so often you hear people talking about "underrated" musicians just because they are in a successful band and don't get much of the spotlight, regardless if they are actually underrated or not. Pick is one I will say IS underrated, but if you are not in the scene for too long you need to die a spectacular death to get recognition.

Nice post! Pick truly added stuff that made you pay attention. He served the song, but he still added that extra touch of brilliance which worked so perfectly. On Mark's solo albums, I can't think of one song where the drums ever caught my attention. Maybe "Laughs and jokes" because of its similarity to Dave Brubeck's "Take Five". On the solo albums, I feel that the musicians play exactly what's "right", exactly what Mark had in mind, as hired studio pros should, but it lacks a certain spark.

Going off topic now, I just want to add that some of my favorite drumming is by Steve Gadd with the group Stuff. Fantastic, eh, stuff. Check out Live from Montreux. Also Kenny Wollesen's work with Bill Frisell. Not to mention Brubeck's drummer Joe Morello. Oh my. But this is jazz territory of course.

But, yeah, Pick, man. What a drummer.

[herlock]

I live in two worlds. Knopflers and Springsteens. Pick could easily have been the Max Weinberg of DS. More often than not, I don't feel like I get invited to listen closely to the drums whenever I hear a song on the radio or whatever. The drums can be just fine and very solid, creating space for others to shine - but lack something that's unexpected to the ears and still works well. That little spark of artistry that makes you pay attention (like MKs guitar, if you will). Pick really had that in him. I have Setting me up from Rainbow in the regular's I put on, and every so often I catch myself paying more attention to the drums than the guitar outside of solos. That doesn't happen often with any Knopfler related tune, at least for me. Especially when it comes to something that's not really up front to begin with.

Every so often you hear people talking about "underrated" musicians just because they are in a successful band and don't get much of the spotlight, regardless if they are actually underrated or not. Pick is one I will say IS underrated, but if you are not in the scene for too long you need to die a spectacular death to get recognition.

Nice post! Pick truly added stuff that made you pay attention. He served the song, but he still added that extra touch of brilliance which worked so perfectly. On Mark's solo albums, I can't think of one song where the drums ever caught my attention. Maybe "Laughs and jokes" because of its similarity to Dave Brubeck's "Take Five". On the solo albums, I feel that the musicians play exactly what's "right", exactly what Mark had in mind, as hired studio pros should, but it lacks a certain spark.

Going off topic now, I just want to add that some of my favorite drumming is by Steve Gadd with the group Stuff. Fantastic, eh, stuff. Check out Live from Montreux. Also Kenny Wollesen's work with Bill Frisell. Not to mention Brubeck's drummer Joe Morello. Oh my. But this is jazz territory of course.

But, yeah, Pick, man. What a drummer.

Yes, listening again to the oldest studio and live DS stuff, Pick is really subtle. Terry was great for live stadium rock, but lacked this subtlety. I think Mark had the illusion he could survive Pick's departure, because in 1983-1984 he only did movie scores and the EP, where drums just had to be powerful, not subtle. But in Montserrat while recording BIA, he must have thought: "Gosh, where's my Pick? I badly need him". Hence the last minute replacement of Terry with Omar...

[Chris W]

I really don't think so.
The BIA material suited Terry more than Pick. All that happened was that recording engineer Neil Dorfsman decided quite quickly that a studio session guy would do a neater, cleaner job of the drums than Terry. Mark persisted with Terry for a while but eventually was persuaded and Dorfsman got his way.
The BIA tour was highly successful with Terry playing the songs.

It's pretty clear from the 'classic tracks' interview that Dorfsman gave to SOS magazine, linked to recently on the forum.

[herlock]

Interesting... Yeah Terry was really powerful live, but studio is another story, you need craftsmanship. Do you think that had Pick stayed in the band, he would have been replaced as well?

[mariosboss]

Pick Withers drumming for me was absolutely key to the Making Movies album, not only his playing but the overall almost epic sound. Apparently it was quite a laborious process getting the drum sound perfect, but for me that sound and vibe has never ever really been replicated.  Obviously Knopfler decided to go down a different route for Love Over Gold and then BIA where the drums on the latter were too polished for my liking (apart from the technically brilliant Ride Across The River and the intro to MFN) but for me songs like Skateaway and Expresso Love benefit from that really loud snare sound. And actually I feel that's partly why like a previous poster mentioned that Knopfler's solo stuff to me has never been that appealing. I liked the fact that the MM album had the songs but also a sort of bombastic ROCK feel. Great drumming and a great sound. It wasn't purely folk or country as such. Obviously Sid McGinnis and Roy Bittan also take a lot of credit on that album, as do Hal Lindes and Alan Clark on LOG.  Moving forward Terry was a superb fit live from 1983 (on most numbers, some of the 80's drum pad effects weren't to my liking but that probably wasn't the fault of Terry) as was Chris who did a magnificent job imho on the On Every Street tour.

[Chris W]

Interesting... Yeah Terry was really powerful live, but studio is another story, you need craftsmanship. Do you think that had Pick stayed in the band, he would have been replaced as well?

The problem occurs when comparing 99% of drummers with the top 5 studio drummers on the planet.
For me personally, you don't need to employ one of the top 5 to record and release an amazing album. From my experience, Neil Dorfsman had a different attitude.

[Ingrained]

Interesting... Yeah Terry was really powerful live, but studio is another story, you need craftsmanship. Do you think that had Pick stayed in the band, he would have been replaced as well?

The problem occurs when comparing 99% of drummers with the top 5 studio drummers on the planet.
For me personally, you don't need to employ one of the top 5 to record and release an amazing album. From my experience, Neil Dorfsman had a different attitude.

Chris, I thought you worked with Dorfsman on My Brave Face, is that correct? I thought he only did that one song for FITD, which was the studio re-recorded version? Was there discussion of you being replaced by another drummer for that one song/session then?

Or are you referring to your On The Night experience?

[Chris W]

Neil worked on a lot of the McCartney album. I sat next to him for many weeks (a few months) in the control room. He said Mark K was very tough on drummers. We also had Mitchell Frome co-producing and he chipped in that Neil Finn was hard on drummers too. Mitchell and Neil worked on a few of the Elvis Costello songs including My Brave Face, almost from the beginning they were pushing Paul to agree to fly in a U.S. drummer to play on those songs, which Paul declined.
I played drums on almost the whole album (except for Paul and one song with Dave Mattacks) and I don't think anyone could say the drumming wasn't good enough.

[Ingrained]

Neil worked on a lot of the McCartney album. I sat next to him for many weeks (a few months) in the control room. He said Mark K was very tough on drummers. We also had Mitchell Frome co-producing and he chipped in that Neil Finn was hard on drummers too. Mitchell and Neil worked on a few of the Elvis Costello songs including My Brave Face, almost from the beginning they were pushing Paul to agree to fly in a U.S. drummer to play on those songs, which Paul declined.
I played drums on almost the whole album (except for Paul and one song with Dave Mattacks) and I don't think anyone could say the drumming wasn't good enough.

Thanks for the reply Chris. That’s really interesting.

So, hadn’t you been involved in the rehearsing and building the songs from the very start with Paul and Hamish? I thought that was how you guys worked up those songs together, at Pauls studio in Sussex, all the way through to the recording stage. That must have been many months or a year even? At what point did Dorfsman push for another drummer?

[Brunno Nunes]

Pick Withers drumming for me was absolutely key to the Making Movies album, not only his playing but the overall almost epic sound. Apparently it was quite a laborious process getting the drum sound perfect, but for me that sound and vibe has never ever really been replicated.  Obviously Knopfler decided to go down a different route for Love Over Gold and then BIA where the drums on the latter were too polished for my liking (apart from the technically brilliant Ride Across The River and the intro to MFN) but for me songs like Skateaway and Expresso Love benefit from that really loud snare sound. And actually I feel that's partly why like a previous poster mentioned that Knopfler's solo stuff to me has never been that appealing. I liked the fact that the MM album had the songs but also a sort of bombastic ROCK feel. Great drumming and a great sound. It wasn't purely folk or country as such. Obviously Sid McGinnis and Roy Bittan also take a lot of credit on that album, as do Hal Lindes and Alan Clark on LOG.  Moving forward Terry was a superb fit live from 1983 (on most numbers, some of the 80's drum pad effects weren't to my liking but that probably wasn't the fault of Terry) as was Chris who did a magnificent job imho on the On Every Street tour.

These observations about the drum sound on the MM album are very interesting. However, there's something about the drum sound on the Communiqué album that captivates me even more: a sound so clean, sensitive, intelligent, and subtle, in contrast to the more solid and powerful sound on MM.

I initially sought to analyze live performances between 78/79 and 80/81, but it's equally interesting to analyze the drum sound on Dire Straits' first four albums, created by the master Pick Whiters.

What do you think of the drum sound on the first two DS albums? How do they differ from each other and from the sound on the MM album?

[ds1984]

I don't find the sound that good on MM. Maybe more compressed.

[Chris W]

That must have been many months or a year even? At what point did Dorfsman push for another drummer?

It was decided that Mitchell Frome and Neil Dorfsman would come in and re-record the Elvis Costello co-written songs. This was after halfway through the album, with other songs already tracked, and even the Costello songs previously recorded.
It wasn't that I wasn't good enough, it was that they had it in their mind they'd prefer to use their favourite drummer.
That's why I feel sorry for Terry regarding BIA and OES albums.

[wayaman]

That must have been many months or a year even? At what point did Dorfsman push for another drummer?

It was decided that Mitchell Frome and Neil Dorfsman would come in and re-record the Elvis Costello co-written songs. This was after halfway through the album, with other songs already tracked, and even the Costello songs previously recorded.
It wasn't that I wasn't good enough, it was that they had it in their mind they'd prefer to use their favourite drummer.
That's why I feel sorry for Terry regarding BIA and OES albums.

That seems a bit random. Using another drummer when the one you already had recorded has done an excellent job, just because they have their favorite...

I remember reading an interview with Ian Thomas telling that he was multi-booked one day and had to arrange things to be able to attend a session at Abbey Road, in a Beatles related project. He managed to do that session and spent a whole mornng doing takes of the "Carry that weight" medley, and when they had the final take someone told him something like "it doesn't matter anyway, Phil Collins is coming tomorrow to play it and they will use his take".

Of course you get paid but, everyone has feelings.

[dustyvalentino]

Phil didn't always have things go the way he wanted either...

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/george-harrison-brutal-prank-phil-collins/

[wayaman]

Phil didn't always have things go the way he wanted either...

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/george-harrison-brutal-prank-phil-collins/

Yeah, lol

But Phil Collins was totally unknown then.