Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[Chris W]

That seems a bit random. Using another drummer when the one you already had recorded has done an excellent job

They thought their man could do it better.
It's funny, the tracks were so massaged, perfected, they sound like a drum machine with 2025 ears.
https://youtu.be/O4J_M_hClEg?si=BZmSolU6XRWiEEfw

Or:

https://youtu.be/QsUq5VsY9AM?si=ioT8RbU5g8ohJ9bo

[wayaman]

That seems a bit random. Using another drummer when the one you already had recorded has done an excellent job

They thought their man could do it better.
It's funny, the tracks were so massaged, perfected, they sound like a drum machine with 2025 ears.
https://youtu.be/O4J_M_hClEg?si=BZmSolU6XRWiEEfw

Or:

https://youtu.be/QsUq5VsY9AM?si=ioT8RbU5g8ohJ9bo

I love the second one, sounds way cooler.

[Ingrained]

That seems a bit random. Using another drummer when the one you already had recorded has done an excellent job

They thought their man could do it better.
It's funny, the tracks were so massaged, perfected, they sound like a drum machine with 2025 ears.
https://youtu.be/O4J_M_hClEg?si=BZmSolU6XRWiEEfw

Or:

https://youtu.be/QsUq5VsY9AM?si=ioT8RbU5g8ohJ9bo

I love the second one, sounds way cooler.

You did fantastic work on Flowers In The Dirt, it was actually the first album I ever bought on CD I think. I’d watched the "Put It There" documentary that got me into it.

[mariosboss]

Interesting... Yeah Terry was really powerful live, but studio is another story, you need craftsmanship. Do you think that had Pick stayed in the band, he would have been replaced as well?

The problem occurs when comparing 99% of drummers with the top 5 studio drummers on the planet.
For me personally, you don't need to employ one of the top 5 to record and release an amazing album. From my experience, Neil Dorfsman had a different attitude.

Brilliant answer, and an honest one considering you have been at the other end of replacing drummers in bands and yet some of your stories you have alluded to the fact that you didn't think much was wrong with the original, so putting you in an odd position. Do you think back then the heirarchy were deemed more fussy and had to be seen to pulling their weight? I suppose budgets were bigger so decisions like bringing in a top top session musician wasn't really given a second thought in terms of the finances. Nowadays... well it's easier to fudge and make something sound better... having said that you aren't always getting a natural top quality performance.

I'm always interested in those ghost musician stories... and i'm sure on numerous occasions they were warranted, but refreshing to hear that you are of the opinion that sometimes the band should have just stuck with it. Terry Williams i'm sure could have nailed 85-90% of that BIA album (I mean he ended up playing the thing live for over a year), and as i've said the funny thing is my favourite part of BIA is the only segment he plays on. The rest is a little bit poppy so to speak although I do appreciate Omar's feel for something like Ride Across The River.... Even as a kid I was baffled by the polished sound of BIA, compared to MM and even LOG, but hey it sold loads of records!

[mariosboss]

Pick Withers drumming for me was absolutely key to the Making Movies album, not only his playing but the overall almost epic sound. Apparently it was quite a laborious process getting the drum sound perfect, but for me that sound and vibe has never ever really been replicated.  Obviously Knopfler decided to go down a different route for Love Over Gold and then BIA where the drums on the latter were too polished for my liking (apart from the technically brilliant Ride Across The River and the intro to MFN) but for me songs like Skateaway and Expresso Love benefit from that really loud snare sound. And actually I feel that's partly why like a previous poster mentioned that Knopfler's solo stuff to me has never been that appealing. I liked the fact that the MM album had the songs but also a sort of bombastic ROCK feel. Great drumming and a great sound. It wasn't purely folk or country as such. Obviously Sid McGinnis and Roy Bittan also take a lot of credit on that album, as do Hal Lindes and Alan Clark on LOG.  Moving forward Terry was a superb fit live from 1983 (on most numbers, some of the 80's drum pad effects weren't to my liking but that probably wasn't the fault of Terry) as was Chris who did a magnificent job imho on the On Every Street tour.

These observations about the drum sound on the MM album are very interesting. However, there's something about the drum sound on the Communiqué album that captivates me even more: a sound so clean, sensitive, intelligent, and subtle, in contrast to the more solid and powerful sound on MM.

I initially sought to analyze live performances between 78/79 and 80/81, but it's equally interesting to analyze the drum sound on Dire Straits' first four albums, created by the master Pick Whiters.

What do you think of the drum sound on the first two DS albums? How do they differ from each other and from the sound on the MM album?

Thanks for your well thought out reply.
Well for the first two albums I did really like the drum sound. Mostly because they fitted the songs. Water Of Love, Down To The Waterline, Wild West End etc. On Communique for example Once Upon A Time In The West for me was a step up and worked exceptionally well.... however by the time we get to Making Movies that band were a different beast.... from the self titled to Comminque very little changed but from Communique to MM you had a different studio, different producer, far better songs etc... also one of the major differences were the contributors. Roy Bittan and Sid McGinnes were phenomenal musicians... don't underestimate their roles. Plus like I mentioned Pick Withers drum sound took a long time to perfect. The sound is so much more fuller on MM, almost stadium-esque rock. For me it's crucial. Otherwise the vibe of the track is lost. Skateaway is the best example. Probably one of my top 3 Dire Straits tracks of all time. Superb lyrics, melodies, guitar play and the overall drum sound is expansive. Had Dire Straits post Communique sounded like the first 2 albums, and more folk or country i'd have probably not been interested. My favourite album followed.... Love Over Gold... my word... but that's another story.

[Chris W]

At the time Frome and Dorfsman were trying to have me replaced on the McCartney album, I was replacing the drummer on the Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians album. Of course it was never my decision. It was up to the producer and the band.
90% of the time it came down to being tight with a click track and consistent. I could play a song and the kick and snare would sound the same all the way through the song. If the producer asked me to play the whole thing again and just change one drum fill, I could do it.
Nowadays everything has changed. You can take an out of time drummer with inconsistent sounds and digitally make them in tie and add a sample on both kick and snare.
We used to talk for hours in the control room, as the McCartney album took nearly 1.5 years to make. If you asked Frome and Dorfsman what their favourite record of all time was they would cite something on Motown or Stax from the early 70's. Which was ironic as the drums on those were typically inconsistent and sped up.

[Ingrained]

At the time Frome and Dorfsman were trying to have me replaced on the McCartney album, I was replacing the drummer on the Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians album. Of course it was never my decision. It was up to the producer and the band.
90% of the time it came down to being tight with a click track and consistent. I could play a song and the kick and snare would sound the same all the way through the song. If the producer asked me to play the whole thing again and just change one drum fill, I could do it.
Nowadays everything has changed. You can take an out of time drummer with inconsistent sounds and digitally make them in tie and add a sample on both kick and snare.
We used to talk for hours in the control room, as the McCartney album took nearly 1.5 years to make. If you asked Frome and Dorfsman what their favourite record of all time was they would cite something on Motown or Stax from the early 70's. Which was ironic as the drums on those were typically inconsistent and sped up.

I think you’ve talked about drumming with other bands finished tracks before, replacing someone's drums or programmed beats. I didn’t realise this was common practice in the 80’s and that producers would purposefully work, with a click track, with this ultimate replacement in mind. So now I wonder how much of it was almost premeditated with BIA. Get Terry to rehearse for a month whilst they all arrange the songs. Lay down the tracks for six weeks. Then replace Terry at the end. Dorfsman has said that he didn’t think Terry’s drums worked from day one. But previously, I had looked at the replacement as an unfortunate and hard choice for them to make.

But maybe this was more common than I realised, and all part of the working process of some producers around that time, and maybe Terry was not quite aware of that?

[Chris W]

In my experience it's not as cold and calculated as that.
According to Dorfsman himself, Mark was determined to continue on with Terry until Neil persuaded him otherwise over the course of a few days.
Why also fly Williams all the way to Monserrat, and waste several days of expensive recording studio time if it was already decided Terry wouldn't be on the final album?
When I've replaced drummers it has been in UK studios, and after they've argued about whether to change the drummer or not for a couple of days, including giving the band's drummer a chance to show what they could do.
When I did 'The Whole Of The Moon' with The Waterboys they were pretty set on mixing the song with the Linn Drums on it. Right at the last minute they decided to give real drums a go and they only spent about four hours changing their mind, as I set up, got the drum sound, and recorded the drums in two or three takes.

[Ingrained]

In my experience it's not as cold and calculated as that.
According to Dorfsman himself, Mark was determined to continue on with Terry until Neil persuaded him otherwise over the course of a few days.
Why also fly Williams all the way to Monserrat, and waste several days of expensive recording studio time if it was already decided Terry wouldn't be on the final album?
When I've replaced drummers it has been in UK studios, and after they've argued about whether to change the drummer or not for a couple of days, including giving the band's drummer a chance to show what they could do.
When I did 'The Whole Of The Moon' with The Waterboys they were pretty set on mixing the song with the Linn Drums on it. Right at the last minute they decided to give real drums a go and they only spent about four hours changing their mind, as I set up, got the drum sound, and recorded the drums in two or three takes.

I wasn’t thinking Mark had it in mind himself. Presumably Omar wouldn’t have been able to do the months rehearsal, or the six weeks tracking for the rest of the bands parts to be worked on? But yes, I take your point, it is a cold, calculated idea, and more of a thought experiment. I simply wondered if it was typical industry standard approach in the 80’s, because the way I always looked at the Terry/Omar replacement, was that it was a fix for a problem that they had to somehow find a way to do. Something that was quite unusual almost. I didn’t realise that it happened with other bands so much, or that frankly that it is one of the other reasons for favouring a click track, not just for a tighter drum feel, but to give the option to replace drums later on. Thanks for your insight Chris.

[dustyvalentino]

Surely if that was the intention they would just work with a click track or Linn drums or whatever in the first instance until the intended drummer came in.

[Chris W]

If you are a seasoned studio pro you don't need to do any rehearsal.
Pre-recording rehearsal is a great way to work out the arrangements, work on some parts and explore ideas in a cheaper environment than a recording studio.
All the time I replaced drum machines or drummers, I hadn't heard the song until five minutes before we started recording my drums.
I'd listen to what they had on tape, discuss any drum ideas, and make notes to read while I was playing.
I typically worked as fast as Hakim, four or so songs a day, a whole album in two or three days tops.

[Ingrained]

I wasn’t looking at it from the session drummer (Chris/Omar) perspective. More from Terry’s. Rehearsals being where the songs were worked on, developed, speed, arrangements etc. I’m going to hazard a guess that Terry had a little more input or involvement in the whole process than a Linn drum.

We’ve been talking about how Pick seemed to have skills that added to the arranging of songs. The drummer can try all sorts of different things, quickly. If things are tried that don’t work out, it’s surely better to find out before the studio. It’s still part of getting the songs from A to Z, or A to wherever and then Omar finished at the Z maybe. I like to think Terry was still part of that development process - and I know that can all be considered guesswork, but I’m not sure that the songs and instrumentation just came out of Marks head fully formed on day one of rehearsals, maybe Mark also chose from what he was getting as the producer/creative director type.

I just had always thought that replacing the drums was only done in really drastic problematic situations as a very last resort, which Chris’ posts have opened my eyes to, as I didn’t know it was also common practice to even get another drummer to see if they worked better. I guess that's why I saw it as a last resort, and was compounded for me by the fact that they wiped Terry’s tracks, which I always presumed must have been a high risk thing to do in the tape days. Ok, so nothing was planned but they still knew they had that as an option.

However, at least I now feel Pick left at exactly the right time. For me, those first four albums have a really nice arc to them, in terms of Pick’s incredible work.

[wayaman]

As far as I recall, Terry said that during the BIA recordings he was playing with a click, and he didn't like playing like that.

[Chris W]

It's not a risk to wipe tracks if you are not happy with them. Why keep them?
Drum recordings don't take long. If you had to get Terry back (very unlikely) you could easily overdub his drums to the click track and the basic bass, guitars and keyboards already on tape. Probably three to four songs a day.
There would always be a dozen drummers capable of playing the BIA songs to an incredibly high standard, should Omar Hakim not work out.

When I rehearsed with DS, it was Mark, Guy and Alan who directed the musical direction. I was led to believe that through the writing process, demoing, arranging for OES, it was Mark, Alan and Guy who made all the decisions. Mark obviously having the final say.

[fan no more]

Apart from Your Latest Trick and Ride Across The River, I don't really get where the challenge is for a pro drummer. It's been said in interviews that with Terry "it just wasn't happening". What does that mean though? It obviously "happened" live. Was his timing not steady enough for the studio? If they used a click track, was he not able to follow it? BIA as a record feels and sounds stiff to me.