Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[Chris W]

Usually it's a feel thing. Hard to deny Hakim has an amazing groove. Also, as I said, most of the time I replaced drummers who weren't consistent.
That means every main kick and snare has the same volume and tone. They're in with the click, not behind it in the verses and ahead of it in the chorusses.
The higher up you get in the music biz, the more 'perfect' you are expected to be.
I'm not a fan of the BIA drum sound. And the McCartney album Frome and Dorfsman oversaw sounds like drum machine in 2025.

[Ingrained]

Usually it's a feel thing. Hard to deny Hakim has an amazing groove. Also, as I said, most of the time I replaced drummers who weren't consistent.
That means every main kick and snare has the same volume and tone. They're in with the click, not behind it in the verses and ahead of it in the chorusses.
The higher up you get in the music biz, the more 'perfect' you are expected to be.
I'm not a fan of the BIA drum sound. And the McCartney album Frome and Dorfsman oversaw sounds like drum machine in 2025.

I’ve wondered before if this sitting “behind” the beat was what they decided didn’t work for the BIA album, rather than Terry having a problem with tempo as such. Omar could shift to play wherever asked behind, on or in front of the beat. I guess you are saying that it could have been more a case of it moving around behind/on the beat and Terry not keeping it steady enough? Because all of Omar’s drumming on BIA sounds behind the beat to me still.

Terry always feels like he’s sat further behind the beat to me. He naturally played and sat there. And further back than Pick to my ears. The whole band locked into that by Alchemy, and that’s what gives it an “easy” feel to me personally.

Pick seemed to intentionally move around a little bit more, still behind the beat, not “on” the beat, but seemed to push and pull things around a bit more for emphasis on certain parts maybe. That’s what I hear in his more playful approach. Maybe I’m imagining things.

So, I wonder if the LOG album recording signposted to Pick how things were heading. Maybe he enjoyed drumming in a more playful way with being able to push and pull the beat a bit? Is there anything to this?

It’s interesting what happens to the other instruments when the drum moves on/behind the beat and it causes problems.

Drumming Behind vs On Top of the Beat
https://youtu.be/mkS3DDRedFc?si=aI-glHYoNhuC9BkO&t=77

[fan no more]

I can imagine that for a pop sound, say Michael Jackson or Madonna, super-tight, highly-consistent drums are a must. Kind of goes with the territory. For DS, not so much. Personally, I love drums that don't sound like a drum machine. Keeping steady time, for sure, but a certain looseness and variation in sound are just lovely, IMO.

But I get the "feel" thing. If Terry wasn't able to bring it, then what to do? But again, he was able to live, so I don't know what to make of it all. Obviously the feel on the album and the live shows was quite different.

[Brunno Nunes]

I can imagine that for a pop sound, say Michael Jackson or Madonna, super-tight, highly-consistent drums are a must. Kind of goes with the territory. For DS, not so much. Personally, I love drums that don't sound like a drum machine. Keeping steady time, for sure, but a certain looseness and variation in sound are just lovely, IMO.

But I get the "feel" thing. If Terry wasn't able to bring it, then what to do? But again, he was able to live, so I don't know what to make of it all. Obviously the feel on the album and the live shows was quite different.

The live feel is completely different. Listen to "So Far Away" at Wembley '85 and the studio version. Terry's live drums are alive, pulsating, and joyful. In the studio, everything is flat. "Ride Across the River" is an exception. The studio drums have many subtleties, wonderful things. Live, it's dimension, more arena rock. In fact, live, all the songs take on a new dimension, new elements. It's incredible how the mix of flute and saxophone sounds in "RATR" live brings a new flavor to this song. I feel the same way in the BIA live version, where they added flute. (By the way, the flute makes a few appearances on the BIA tour; it's a striking element on that tour. It's present in "RATR," "One World," "TMTS," and "BIA." Chris White is the "Paul Franklin" of the BIA tour with the sax and flute.)

All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version.

[Ingrained]

I can imagine that for a pop sound, say Michael Jackson or Madonna, super-tight, highly-consistent drums are a must. Kind of goes with the territory. For DS, not so much. Personally, I love drums that don't sound like a drum machine. Keeping steady time, for sure, but a certain looseness and variation in sound are just lovely, IMO.

But I get the "feel" thing. If Terry wasn't able to bring it, then what to do? But again, he was able to live, so I don't know what to make of it all. Obviously the feel on the album and the live shows was quite different.

The live feel is completely different. Listen to "So Far Away" at Wembley '85 and the studio version. Terry's live drums are alive, pulsating, and joyful. In the studio, everything is flat. "Ride Across the River" is an exception. The studio drums have many subtleties, wonderful things. Live, it's dimension, more arena rock. In fact, live, all the songs take on a new dimension, new elements. It's incredible how the mix of flute and saxophone sounds in "RATR" live brings a new flavor to this song. I feel the same way in the BIA live version, where they added flute. (By the way, the flute makes a few appearances on the BIA tour; it's a striking element on that tour. It's present in "RATR," "One World," "TMTS," and "BIA." Chris White is the "Paul Franklin" of the BIA tour with the sax and flute.)

All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version.

And Ron Eve on the accordian keyboards for BIA (Wembley), not new instrumentation but even more people on stage, as it was growing in size.

[Chris W]

But you are buying into the idea that Terry wasn't good enough.
I'm saying that Neil Dorfsman had already decided that an American studio drummer would be the best choice for the BIA sessions, but it took him some time to persuade Mark to godown that road.
When it came to OES it seems Mark had already decided that an American studio drummer would be the right choice (Jeff Porcaro).
Regarding the 'feel' of Terry and the difference between studio and live. I always felt both Pick and Terry were at least on roof the beat and often sped up in live performance. In the studio, you can clearly hear that happening, conflicting with the click track. So if you are perfectly in time with the click, it's going to be a different feel to Dire Straits Live.
I prided myself on good time, steady time keeping. When we started rehearsals for the OES tour, Mark kept stopping the band and accusing me of slowing down. I've never been known to slow down, although I  sometimes sped up.
We were playing Walk Of Life which had some gaps. I was looking for a way to fix the issue one way or another. Danny Cummings suggested we hook up a drum machine at the agreed tempo and I would have it in my ear, like a click track. First couple of times we played it with the click, the whole band were in front of me coming out of the gaps. I wasn't slowing down, they were habituated to the drummer speeding up.

[Brunno Nunes]

I can imagine that for a pop sound, say Michael Jackson or Madonna, super-tight, highly-consistent drums are a must. Kind of goes with the territory. For DS, not so much. Personally, I love drums that don't sound like a drum machine. Keeping steady time, for sure, but a certain looseness and variation in sound are just lovely, IMO.

But I get the "feel" thing. If Terry wasn't able to bring it, then what to do? But again, he was able to live, so I don't know what to make of it all. Obviously the feel on the album and the live shows was quite different.

The live feel is completely different. Listen to "So Far Away" at Wembley '85 and the studio version. Terry's live drums are alive, pulsating, and joyful. In the studio, everything is flat. "Ride Across the River" is an exception. The studio drums have many subtleties, wonderful things. Live, it's dimension, more arena rock. In fact, live, all the songs take on a new dimension, new elements. It's incredible how the mix of flute and saxophone sounds in "RATR" live brings a new flavor to this song. I feel the same way in the BIA live version, where they added flute. (By the way, the flute makes a few appearances on the BIA tour; it's a striking element on that tour. It's present in "RATR," "One World," "TMTS," and "BIA." Chris White is the "Paul Franklin" of the BIA tour with the sax and flute.)

All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version.

..

I digressed a bit at the end, but returning to the drums on these songs, Terry made everything more fun live; his approach has that essence, I get that feeling. But, what he has on BIA's recording, the crescendo in the intro to MFN, I learned that all the drums on the song Walk of Life are his. I believe BIA would have had a different feel if he had recorded the album. For me, it's incredible, of course, but I've always felt the album loses something of its DNA due to the absence of members and the participation of hired musicians, something that doesn't happen on the first two albums and LOG. The MM album carries some of this, but less than the BIA album. In this sense, MM and BIA have something in common: the absence of members and the participation of musicians who weren't in the band. The LOG album was recorded with the band that toured MM 80/81, produced by MK. In short, there's an interesting unity there.

[Ingrained]

But you are buying into the idea that Terry wasn't good enough.
I'm saying that Neil Dorfsman had already decided that an American studio drummer would be the best choice for the BIA sessions, but it took him some time to persuade Mark to godown that road.
When it came to OES it seems Mark had already decided that an American studio drummer would be the right choice (Jeff Porcaro).
Regarding the 'feel' of Terry and the difference between studio and live. I always felt both Pick and Terry were at least on roof the beat and often sped up in live performance. In the studio, you can clearly hear that happening, conflicting with the click track. So if you are perfectly in time with the click, it's going to be a different feel to Dire Straits Live.
I prided myself on good time, steady time keeping. When we started rehearsals for the OES tour, Mark kept stopping the band and accusing me of slowing down. I've never been known to slow down, although I  sometimes sped up.
We were playing Walk Of Life which had some gaps. I was looking for a way to fix the issue one way or another. Danny Cummings suggested we hook up a drum machine at the agreed tempo and I would have it in my ear, like a click track. First couple of times we played it with the click, the whole band were in front of me coming out of the gaps. I wasn't slowing down, they were habituated to the drummer speeding up.

I’m not sure who is supposed to be suggesting Terry wasn’t good enough, but that’s defo not what I was talking about, it’s tricky to explain these things.

I’m talking about where the drummers characteristically, naturally tended sit on the beat, and I simply wondered from your perspective how you saw that. I’m not talking about what maybe percieved as errors, more about the drummers natural tendencies, throughout an entire song. I was picturing a steady feel but behind/on the beat still - but then you mentioned the WOL speeding up. But for instance, surely Stewart Copeland is much more “on the beat”, whereas Ringo was further back on the beat to the point of Ringo almost having a characteristic drag, which was very cool to me. I wasn’t really referring to going out of time, inconsistencies, or speeding up tempos in any areas. It’s just that when Dorfsman got another drummer in, I wondered if those kind of things come into play or were considered, but I guess only they’ll know. It sounds like Omar just "did what he did".

I guess “roof” is suposed to mean “on top of the beat” because I always thought both Pick and Terry were naturally inclined to sit very slightly behind the beat. But again, being behind is not meant as an error, I’m saying that is what the earlier DS drum sound seemed to be, to me at least. And I wasn’t sure if that shifted with BIA and the other drummers after.

[wayaman]

Omar Hakim is an excellent drummer, you only have to listen his other works, but for mee, BIA is the most boring DS record in terms of drumming.

[herlock]

Omar Hakim is an excellent drummer, you only have to listen his other works, but for mee, BIA is the most boring DS record in terms of drumming.

Would pick have made a difference ?

[wayaman]

Omar Hakim is an excellent drummer, you only have to listen his other works, but for mee, BIA is the most boring DS record in terms of drumming.

Would pick have made a difference ?

Probably not, as long as Neil Dorfsman had in mind what he wanted the drums to sound, it wouldn't mind which drummer was recording. Terry said that what he recorded was playing to a click, probably Omar did that too, so any other drummer would had played to that click too.

[Robson]

"All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version"

That's true! I always thought that about dIRE sTRAITS

[herlock]

"All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version"

That's true! I always thought that about dIRE sTRAITS

Yes. And they really complement each other. Not sure one is better than the other, I like both.
Take Sultans and TOL, for instance. Studio versions are finely crafted, absolutely perfect, not one note missing, not one extra note, Mark and Pick's magic combined. Take the live versions, this unique groove is gone, but the expanded songs turn absolutely epic. I really love both, depending on my mood. Right now I have more of a "studio mood", and I'm listening to the MM album, a perfect piece of art!

[Robson]

"All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version"

That's true! I always thought that about dIRE sTRAITS

Yes. And they really complement each other. Not sure one is better than the other, I like both.
Take Sultans and TOL, for instance. Studio versions are finely crafted, absolutely perfect, not one note missing, not one extra note, Mark and Pick's magic combined. Take the live versions, this unique groove is gone, but the expanded songs turn absolutely epic. I really love both, depending on my mood. Right now I have more of a "studio mood", and I'm listening to the MM album, a perfect piece of art!

That's right. I remember the first time I heard "Once Upon A Time..." from the aLCHEMY album. I asked myself: God, is this really the same song? 

[Ingrained]

I can imagine that for a pop sound, say Michael Jackson or Madonna, super-tight, highly-consistent drums are a must. Kind of goes with the territory. For DS, not so much. Personally, I love drums that don't sound like a drum machine. Keeping steady time, for sure, but a certain looseness and variation in sound are just lovely, IMO.

But I get the "feel" thing. If Terry wasn't able to bring it, then what to do? But again, he was able to live, so I don't know what to make of it all. Obviously the feel on the album and the live shows was quite different.

The live feel is completely different. Listen to "So Far Away" at Wembley '85 and the studio version. Terry's live drums are alive, pulsating, and joyful. In the studio, everything is flat. "Ride Across the River" is an exception. The studio drums have many subtleties, wonderful things. Live, it's dimension, more arena rock. In fact, live, all the songs take on a new dimension, new elements. It's incredible how the mix of flute and saxophone sounds in "RATR" live brings a new flavor to this song. I feel the same way in the BIA live version, where they added flute. (By the way, the flute makes a few appearances on the BIA tour; it's a striking element on that tour. It's present in "RATR," "One World," "TMTS," and "BIA." Chris White is the "Paul Franklin" of the BIA tour with the sax and flute.)

All of this shows that there are two Dire Straits: the studio version and the live version.

..

I digressed a bit at the end, but returning to the drums on these songs, Terry made everything more fun live; his approach has that essence, I get that feeling. But, what he has on BIA's recording, the crescendo in the intro to MFN, I learned that all the drums on the song Walk of Life are his. I believe BIA would have had a different feel if he had recorded the album. For me, it's incredible, of course, but I've always felt the album loses something of its DNA due to the absence of members and the participation of hired musicians, something that doesn't happen on the first two albums and LOG. The MM album carries some of this, but less than the BIA album. In this sense, MM and BIA have something in common: the absence of members and the participation of musicians who weren't in the band. The LOG album was recorded with the band that toured MM 80/81, produced by MK. In short, there's an interesting unity there.

It’s true that there is two different things going on with the studio and live. But also once the click track is seriously introduced, DS seemed to feel different to me. It’s a good point about LOG being a continuation of the live lineup. I guess that’s another reason I felt that lineup, or with Terry, was a good chance at a DS continuation after the losses of David and Pick, but DS was ultimately about progression and going forwards.

BIA album feels like a major update though. The fulcrum where something pivots in the approach and the sound. I think Terry’s musical style was more in the vein of the earlier DS lineup, but that also meant he did a good job live of bridging that crossover to the more click track, studio drummer approach that followed and sort of glued together the BIA live show, giving some familiar consistency. I suppose that is a positive outcome for me, even with him not being on most of the BIA album, in tying together the old with the new in the shows, at that time. As a thought experiment, having Omar, or someone in that similar style, play live in ’85, would have felt like too large a jump at that point for me. DS tacked like a ship, and some continuity was good as well.

As much as AI is talked about now, the ubiquitous use of the click track in the industry was clearly another technological game changer that affected musicians then, good and bad.

To use a tech analogy, if Dire Straits were to follow a Software Versioning Code, Terry (live) helps to bridge and transition to version 2.0 where to me, the music starts to feel it has much more of the click track influence (studio drummer style) and for me at least, DS (BIA, OES) starts to have a different feel to it.


Code
Version.Major.Minor.Patch

1977-1980
V1.0

1980-1981
V1.0.1 (Studio, MM)
V1.1 (Live, On Location)

1982-1984
V1.1 (Studio, LOG)
V1.2 (Live, Alchemy)

1984-1986
V2.0 (Studio, BIA)
V1.3 (Live)

1988
V1.3.1 (Live)

1991-1992
V2.1 (Studio,OES)
V2.2 (Live)