Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[Chris W]

The issue with AI is it is replacing musicians, a lot of musicians. It's not that hard to play with a click track, you just have to imagine it's another member of the band.
Omar Hakim is a fabulous drummer who has played on everything from Daft Punk to Weather Report.
Had he toured BIA I think he would have played the Pick era material with sensitivity and honour.

[Jimbo]

I'm limiting myself to the studio albums and I notice a big difference that I want to explain in terms of "percentages of importance."
Pick's studio drumming, so on the first four albums, had a percentage importance that I would define as at least 20% (in MM 30%).
The importance of the guitars (lead, rhythm, and third) is 60%. Then drums and bass complement each other.
In MM, Pick prevails over John (the bass sound is a bit underpowered compared to the first two).
In LOG, the bass sound returns to being powerful, and John prevails over Pick, who gets little space.
With BIA and OES, the drumming becomes residual (except for Calling Elvis, HF, and Planet).
It's worth 5%, no more.
Hakim is a great drummer, as are Porcaro and Katchè, but the sound is enriched by other instruments. BIA and OES are great albums, but the drumming is no longer of great importance.
From 20% to 5%.

[Jimbo]

I'm not a drummer, so I'll just note one thing.
In his early years, Pick improvised more.
It seems he didn't have a precise plan.
He ended almost every song with short solos.
As time went by, he became more entangled in a system that became more precise, more perfect, with no room for improvisation.
It reminds me slightly of Mason's journey in PF, from a great improvisational drummer to a metronome.

[fan no more]

For sure, on the first two albums, Pick played almost like a jazz drummer and really put his stamp on the sound. But the music and arrangements were sparse so it worked very well. On the next two albums, he is a lot more anonymous, but the music on those two is more advanced with more sophisticated arrangements, so the band needs to be more disciplined and stick to the "script". (The sound of MM and LOG feels so dated now. I can hardly listen to them anymore.)

Right now I'm listening to MFN on headphones, paying particulary attention to the drums, and OMG what a dull drum sound. SFA and WOL too. A more organic sound and a bit of Terry Williams' "live feel" would have been great, IMO. Hakim's drumming on YLT is wonderful, though. Wow. One World has some cool, but straightforward drumming (awful song ...). I love the drumming on BIA, though. Just the light rimshots and subtle high-hat work. I really like that they didn't go for full power ballad with arena rock drums.

On OES, though, I really think the drumming added a lot to that album. They are much more to the forefront than on the BIA album. More detailed sound, more assertive. Even the silly My Parties has fantastic drumming.

---

It's nice to go through these very well-known albums to us and just focus on other elements than Mark's guitar playing and vocals.

[herlock]

The sound of MM and LOG feels so dated now. I can hardly listen to them anymore.

I can't believe you wrote that. I really think MM sounds great, so pristine clear. And LOG is an absolute masterpiece, the Uber album, sounds great to me!

[Robson]

"The sound of MM and LOG feels so dated now. I can hardly listen to them anymore"

Really? I have a completely different feeling.

[Chris W]

In MM, Pick prevails over John (the bass sound is a bit underpowered compared to the first two).
In LOG, the bass sound returns to being powerful, and John prevails over Pick, who gets little space.
With BIA and OES, the drumming becomes residual (except for Calling Elvis, HF, and Planet).
It's worth 5%, no more.

It's never a competition. The rhythm section are there to support the vision of the songwriter.
90% of listeners aren't listening specifically to the drums and usually don't care what the drums are doing. Most people just get 'a feeling' from the music and focus mostly on the lead vocal, lead instrument (in this case guitar) and lyrics.
Porcaro's playing on OES is superb and adds A LOT to the album IMO. With BIA, I'm not a fan of the drum sound, which is really down to the production and final mix. Hakim's drumming is also superb, tasteful and professional. However, having been a studio drummer in that era, I think sing writers and producers were mentally approaching drums from a drum machine perspective. They saw drum machines as 'perfection' and wanted human drummers to emulate that mechanical perfection.
Very influential artists like Stevie Wonder and Prince were smashing the charts with singles and albums heavily featuring drum machines.

[dustyvalentino]

The sound of MM and LOG feels so dated now. I can hardly listen to them anymore.

I can't believe you wrote that. I really think MM sounds great, so pristine clear. And LOG is an absolute masterpiece, the Uber album, sounds great to me!

Yeah... BiA sounds dated with the synths etc, but not MM and LOG.

[Jimbo]

In MM, Pick prevails over John (the bass sound is a bit underpowered compared to the first two).
In LOG, the bass sound returns to being powerful, and John prevails over Pick, who gets little space.
With BIA and OES, the drumming becomes residual (except for Calling Elvis, HF, and Planet).
It's worth 5%, no more.

It's never a competition. The rhythm section are there to support the vision of the songwriter.
90% of listeners aren't listening specifically to the drums and usually don't care what the drums are doing. Most people just get 'a feeling' from the music and focus mostly on the lead vocal, lead instrument (in this case guitar) and lyrics.
Porcaro's playing on OES is superb and adds A LOT to the album IMO. With BIA, I'm not a fan of the drum sound, which is really down to the production and final mix. Hakim's drumming is also superb, tasteful and professional. However, having been a studio drummer in that era, I think sing writers and producers were mentally approaching drums from a drum machine perspective. They saw drum machines as 'perfection' and wanted human drummers to emulate that mechanical perfection.
Very influential artists like Stevie Wonder and Prince were smashing the charts with singles and albums heavily featuring drum machines.

Yes, I know that the rhythm section only interests a small portion of listeners and that it's primarily the vocals, sometimes the lyrics, and the guitar (much less than years ago), but we're here to understand the drumming and rhythm section in DS.

I agree that Porcaro performs well on OES, as does Hakim on BIA. The drumming on those two albums simply has less influence, is less recognizable, has less importance, and has less space because it's purely accompaniment, with some fine, classy work, but it's still pure rhythm.
I like BIA and OES; I simply notice that the sound takes a different path compared to the first three albums (even LOG had less drumming compared to the first three).

I agree, however, about the drum machine as "human perfection."

[wayaman]

In MM, Pick prevails over John (the bass sound is a bit underpowered compared to the first two).
In LOG, the bass sound returns to being powerful, and John prevails over Pick, who gets little space.
With BIA and OES, the drumming becomes residual (except for Calling Elvis, HF, and Planet).
It's worth 5%, no more.

It's never a competition. The rhythm section are there to support the vision of the songwriter.
90% of listeners aren't listening specifically to the drums and usually don't care what the drums are doing. Most people just get 'a feeling' from the music and focus mostly on the lead vocal, lead instrument (in this case guitar) and lyrics.
Porcaro's playing on OES is superb and adds A LOT to the album IMO. With BIA, I'm not a fan of the drum sound, which is really down to the production and final mix. Hakim's drumming is also superb, tasteful and professional. However, having been a studio drummer in that era, I think sing writers and producers were mentally approaching drums from a drum machine perspective. They saw drum machines as 'perfection' and wanted human drummers to emulate that mechanical perfection.
Very influential artists like Stevie Wonder and Prince were smashing the charts with singles and albums heavily featuring drum machines.

Yes, I know that the rhythm section only interests a small portion of listeners and that it's primarily the vocals, sometimes the lyrics, and the guitar (much less than years ago), but we're here to understand the drumming and rhythm section in DS.

I agree that Porcaro performs well on OES, as does Hakim on BIA. The drumming on those two albums simply has less influence, is less recognizable, has less importance, and has less space because it's purely accompaniment, with some fine, classy work, but it's still pure rhythm.
I like BIA and OES; I simply notice that the sound takes a different path compared to the first three albums (even LOG had less drumming compared to the first three).

I agree, however, about the drum machine as "human perfection."

Excuse me... saying that Jeff Porcaro performs well on OES is like saying that Picasso, Van Gogh etc paint well on their canvas...

Jeff Porcaro was absolutly exceptional and his playing was the best that DS ever had in their whole career, and the best that millions of artists had on their records during the years he was alive.

He was the GOAT.

There is a story about a discussion in a Toto recording session, where the producer was telling Jeff was playing out of the rythmic he should play, and Jeff demonstrate him that it was the tape machine that wasn't working properly.

[Jimbo]

For sure, on the first two albums, Pick played almost like a jazz drummer and really put his stamp on the sound. But the music and arrangements were sparse so it worked very well. On the next two albums, he is a lot more anonymous, but the music on those two is more advanced with more sophisticated arrangements, so the band needs to be more disciplined and stick to the "script". (The sound of MM and LOG feels so dated now. I can hardly listen to them anymore.)

Right now I'm listening to MFN on headphones, paying particulary attention to the drums, and OMG what a dull drum sound. SFA and WOL too. A more organic sound and a bit of Terry Williams' "live feel" would have been great, IMO. Hakim's drumming on YLT is wonderful, though. Wow. One World has some cool, but straightforward drumming (awful song ...). I love the drumming on BIA, though. Just the light rimshots and subtle high-hat work. I really like that they didn't go for full power ballad with arena rock drums.

On OES, though, I really think the drumming added a lot to that album. They are much more to the forefront than on the BIA album. More detailed sound, more assertive. Even the silly My Parties has fantastic drumming.

---

It's nice to go through these very well-known albums to us and just focus on other elements than Mark's guitar playing and vocals.

I agree with the first part (the jazzy Pick, then the arrangements that take away from the drumming, and finally when you say that threads that don't follow the usual Mark and his guitar track are interesting).

I don't follow you on the more anonymous Pick of MM (while I agree that in LOG the drumming is less incisive, less decisive).

How can you call the sound of MM and LOG dated? Do you mean the entire albums?
So TOL, Skateaway, TR, Private Investigations, It never rains dated?

[Jimbo]

In MM, Pick prevails over John (the bass sound is a bit underpowered compared to the first two).
In LOG, the bass sound returns to being powerful, and John prevails over Pick, who gets little space.
With BIA and OES, the drumming becomes residual (except for Calling Elvis, HF, and Planet).
It's worth 5%, no more.

It's never a competition. The rhythm section are there to support the vision of the songwriter.
90% of listeners aren't listening specifically to the drums and usually don't care what the drums are doing. Most people just get 'a feeling' from the music and focus mostly on the lead vocal, lead instrument (in this case guitar) and lyrics.
Porcaro's playing on OES is superb and adds A LOT to the album IMO. With BIA, I'm not a fan of the drum sound, which is really down to the production and final mix. Hakim's drumming is also superb, tasteful and professional. However, having been a studio drummer in that era, I think sing writers and producers were mentally approaching drums from a drum machine perspective. They saw drum machines as 'perfection' and wanted human drummers to emulate that mechanical perfection.
Very influential artists like Stevie Wonder and Prince were smashing the charts with singles and albums heavily featuring drum machines.

Yes, I know that the rhythm section only interests a small portion of listeners and that it's primarily the vocals, sometimes the lyrics, and the guitar (much less than years ago), but we're here to understand the drumming and rhythm section in DS.

I agree that Porcaro performs well on OES, as does Hakim on BIA. The drumming on those two albums simply has less influence, is less recognizable, has less importance, and has less space because it's purely accompaniment, with some fine, classy work, but it's still pure rhythm.
I like BIA and OES; I simply notice that the sound takes a different path compared to the first three albums (even LOG had less drumming compared to the first three).

I agree, however, about the drum machine as "human perfection."

Excuse me... saying that Jeff Porcaro performs well on OES is like saying that Picasso, Van Gogh etc paint well on their canvas...

Jeff Porcaro was absolutly exceptional and his playing was the best that DS ever had in their whole career, and the best that millions of artists had on their records during the years he was alive.

He was the GOAT.

There is a story about a discussion in a Toto recording session, where the producer was telling Jeff was playing out of the rythmic he should play, and Jeff demonstrate him that it was the tape machine that wasn't working properly.

Maybe we don't understand each other; let's not argue about whether Porcaro or Hakim are great drummers.
It depends on what music they play.
You can take the 50 best drummers in history and have them play on early Dylan albums, and their importance is barely noticed, almost not at all.
It depends on what music you play.
People are saying that there are albums where drumming is dominant, others where it's very important, and others where it's not a determining factor.
In a previous post, I gave the example of Mason, who is crucial live on Pompeii, and on The Wall, which is a great album, he's a minor influence.
In my opinion, Porcaro, who remains a great drummer, if you exclude Calling Elvis or HF or Planet of NO, doesn't impress me.

[wayaman]

In MM, Pick prevails over John (the bass sound is a bit underpowered compared to the first two).
In LOG, the bass sound returns to being powerful, and John prevails over Pick, who gets little space.
With BIA and OES, the drumming becomes residual (except for Calling Elvis, HF, and Planet).
It's worth 5%, no more.

It's never a competition. The rhythm section are there to support the vision of the songwriter.
90% of listeners aren't listening specifically to the drums and usually don't care what the drums are doing. Most people just get 'a feeling' from the music and focus mostly on the lead vocal, lead instrument (in this case guitar) and lyrics.
Porcaro's playing on OES is superb and adds A LOT to the album IMO. With BIA, I'm not a fan of the drum sound, which is really down to the production and final mix. Hakim's drumming is also superb, tasteful and professional. However, having been a studio drummer in that era, I think sing writers and producers were mentally approaching drums from a drum machine perspective. They saw drum machines as 'perfection' and wanted human drummers to emulate that mechanical perfection.
Very influential artists like Stevie Wonder and Prince were smashing the charts with singles and albums heavily featuring drum machines.

Yes, I know that the rhythm section only interests a small portion of listeners and that it's primarily the vocals, sometimes the lyrics, and the guitar (much less than years ago), but we're here to understand the drumming and rhythm section in DS.

I agree that Porcaro performs well on OES, as does Hakim on BIA. The drumming on those two albums simply has less influence, is less recognizable, has less importance, and has less space because it's purely accompaniment, with some fine, classy work, but it's still pure rhythm.
I like BIA and OES; I simply notice that the sound takes a different path compared to the first three albums (even LOG had less drumming compared to the first three).

I agree, however, about the drum machine as "human perfection."

Excuse me... saying that Jeff Porcaro performs well on OES is like saying that Picasso, Van Gogh etc paint well on their canvas...

Jeff Porcaro was absolutly exceptional and his playing was the best that DS ever had in their whole career, and the best that millions of artists had on their records during the years he was alive.

He was the GOAT.

There is a story about a discussion in a Toto recording session, where the producer was telling Jeff was playing out of the rythmic he should play, and Jeff demonstrate him that it was the tape machine that wasn't working properly.

Maybe we don't understand each other; let's not argue about whether Porcaro or Hakim are great drummers.
It depends on what music they play.
You can take the 50 best drummers in history and have them play on early Dylan albums, and their importance is barely noticed, almost not at all.
It depends on what music you play.
People are saying that there are albums where drumming is dominant, others where it's very important, and others where it's not a determining factor.
In a previous post, I gave the example of Mason, who is crucial live on Pompeii, and on The Wall, which is a great album, he's a minor influence.
In my opinion, Porcaro, who remains a great drummer, if you exclude Calling Elvis or HF or Planet of NO, doesn't impress me.

You are clearly not a drummer, or a drums fan. Jeff's playing on each single song is just outstanding, but not everyone can understand what they are listening to. Same applies when you talk about bassists.

[Chris W]

I agree that Porcaro performs well on OES, as does Hakim on BIA. The drumming on those two albums simply has less influence, is less recognizable, has less importance, and has less space because it's purely accompaniment, with some fine, classy work, but it's still pure rhythm.

I think Ed said in an earlier post that Mark wanted the band to evolve, change direction. It all stems back to Mark's compositions. There is no need for the drums to dominate, or be more influential on BIA and OES. It's down to the songs and Mark's vision. It wouldn't have been any different with Pick or Terry playing those songs.

[Jimbo]

I agree that Porcaro performs well on OES, as does Hakim on BIA. The drumming on those two albums simply has less influence, is less recognizable, has less importance, and has less space because it's purely accompaniment, with some fine, classy work, but it's still pure rhythm.

I think Ed said in an earlier post that Mark wanted the band to evolve, change direction. It all stems back to Mark's compositions. There is no need for the drums to dominate, or be more influential on BIA and OES. It's down to the songs and Mark's vision. It wouldn't have been any different with Pick or Terry playing those songs.

I agree, that's essentially the point.
The direction has changed.