Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[Chris W]

I don't believe children are BORN to be better guitarists or drummers than other children.

[fan no more]

I don't believe children are BORN to be better guitarists or drummers than other children.

Well, doesn't plain observation tell you otherwise? I need look no further than to my own two sons. The youngest had wonderful facility with football from an early age. He kicked it perfectly. Leaning back, twisting his torso, and boom! The other one kicked it using his leg like a broom. Even after lots of instruction and going for football training he still doesn't "get it". Why wouldn't this apply to musicality and aptitude on an instrument?

[koobaa]

Yes, and what about all these prodigy kids playing advanced classical music at the age of 6 or less? Nothing to do with talent?

[Chris W]

It's argued that it has more to do with their environment.
I didn't pickup any drum sticks untilI was 11, so if there are children as young as 4-6 playing incredible violin, don't you think their parents have hot housed them, including formal lessons from a very early age?

[koobaa]

That may be true of course, but some people are born with neurological or physiological traits that give them a head start. For example, perfect pitch in musicians often appears before training (not that you need it to succeed in music but you can call it a 'gift'). Some people are born with exceptional memory, fine motor control or pattern recognition and all that can make them excel faster than those without it. I would say that talent might determine how fast you progress early on, but practice determines how far you go.

[fan no more]

I guess all the talent scouts out there looking for the next Ronaldo or Messi must be wrong then    No-one is denying the need for exposure and development, but to say that we're all on an equal footing with equal potential of achieving greatness provided we have the same exposure, the same training and put in the same hours ... I mean, come on already.

[Chris W]

That may be true of course, but some people are born with neurological or physiological traits that give them a head start.

My problem with that is that it borders dangerously close to genetic superiority theory.
Many incredible musicians don't have perfect pitch, and probably a lot of plumbers and brick layers have perfect pitch and don't even know it.
The big difference is finding what your child enjoys doing and letting them do it for long periods. If you are interested in something, you'll find joy in practising it, even as a two year old.

[Chris W]

I guess all the talent scouts out there looking for the next Ronaldo or Messi must be wrong then

You've completely missed my point. They're not looking at 2 and 3 year olds.
The problem with all of this is putting some kind of divine label on any human. It's often a negative - I can't do something because I don't have the 'gift' of talent. Additionally when totalitarian states pick out individuals who seem to be talented at something (gymnastics, swimming, mathematics) and hothouse them in those disciplines without a rounded education, leading to tremendous pressure to achieve while missing out on just being a child.

[fan no more]

Oh, boy, Chris. Really?

Anyway, back to topic.

[koobaa]

That may be true of course, but some people are born with neurological or physiological traits that give them a head start.

My problem with that is that it borders dangerously close to genetic superiority theory.
Many incredible musicians don't have perfect pitch, and probably a lot of plumbers and brick layers have perfect pitch and don't even know it.
The big difference is finding what your child enjoys doing and letting them do it for long periods. If you are interested in something, you'll find joy in practising it, even as a two year old.

Sorry to hijack the topic but it is fascinating.

Acknowledging that people are born with different neurological wiring isn’t about superiority, it’s just recognizing natural variation — the same way some people are taller or have sharper eyesight. It doesn’t determine value or destiny. I actually agree with you that what really matters is interest and persistence. You can have a great ear, but if you don’t enjoy the work, it won’t develop into anything. Passion and long practice are what make the difference — talent might open the door, but motivation and time spent doing it are what take you through it.

In other words, talent doesn’t create hierarchy — it sets different starting points. What we do with those differences is entirely cultural and personal. I think the key is to recognize both biology and environment as partners in human potential.

[dustyvalentino]

Must be physical elements as well, look at the length of Jimi Hendrix's fingers!

[koobaa]

Absolutely. Part of the biology component I mentioned above. But it was his mind, imagination, and work ethic that turned that advantage into history.

[Chris W]

Acknowledging that people are born with different neurological wiring isn’t about superiority, it’s just recognizing natural variation —

Sure, but it's most often used to label some people as superior and others inferior - that's the *problem*.
It started with The Victorians and came back in the 1930's and continues today with issues around 'Nero-diversity'.
In any case, I really don't believe it.
You'll find that many great song writers read books compulsively as a small child into their teenage years. Many great drummers had musician parents, especially drummer parents. They were sat behind a drum kit with a pair of sticks before they could even walk.
Bringing it back to the initial comment,I seriously don't think Vinnie Colaiuta had a gift bestowed on him at birth. I think he found a passion for music and drumming and worked incredibly hard for years, while other kids were at the beach or playing Nintendo.

[koobaa]

I think we should probably pause here — this feels like it’s moving into a “believe or not believe” territory rather than a discussion based on facts.

That said, neurodiversity is scientifically established. Victorian “genetic superiority” theories did misuse biological ideas to justify inequality but that’s precisely why modern science is careful to separate descriptive biology (differences exist) from prescriptive ideology (therefore some are worth more). Your examples (Vinnie Colaiuta, drummers with musical parents, and early exposure) show environmental advantage, not the absence of innate variability. Both forces coexist. The science is pretty clear that it’s not one or the other. Genes give us a starting point, and environment, experience and practice decide where we end up.

[Robson]

"Genes give us a starting point, and environment, experience and practice decide where we end up.

Exactly! That's a good punchline