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Author Topic: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.  (Read 1986 times)

OfflineJF

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2025, 11:22:56 AM »
lasy night I was reading in Richard Koechli's book, and aorund the slow train coming period, I came I came across this information about Pick and keyboards :

(translated with Deepl)

Pick remembers that working with Barry Beckett and Tim Drummond really helped him improve his drumming. He's sure it was a turning point, because those recordings with Dylan set the stage for using keyboards on future Dire Straits albums. Scott M. Marshall quotes Pick Withers: “I wanted to introduce keyboards into Dire Straits, but John and David were hesitant.” Pick believes that this experience at Muscle Shoals Studio helped Mark make up his mind about keyboards “because he had been thinking about it too.”


it's strange because in the oldfield book, it's said that Pick found that keyboards took too much improtance in the band sound, and now it seems that he was behind this decision ?  :think



OfflineChris W

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2025, 11:54:48 AM »

I don't remember John saying he wanted louder drums either.

It would have been in one of Pick's Youtube interviews, saying he was pressured to play louder and that was something he wasn't happy to do.
IME, John basically backs Mark almost all the time.

Offlinethe visitor

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2025, 11:27:06 PM »
It's difficult to comment on the technical changes without being a drummer, but from my perspective Pick moved from a jazz feel through to being confined to louder, straighter rock drumming, which he didn't like.  To refresh my memory I turned to the Michael Oldfield book 'Dire Straits', published by Sidgewick and Jack on (if you don't have it then it is worth seeking out).

Here are two extracts on Pick which bookend the story, the first from when he joins the band, and the second about his departure:-

"In terms of experience, Pick Withers was worlds apart from the
other three, An early memory for him is seeing the Boys' Brigade
band marching down the street to the beat of a big bass drum. 'For
some reason I wanted to get that drum, 1 had to go through a lot ofred
tape - be in the Boys' Brigade for a year, then play the bugle for a
year. My great piece was playing "The Last Post" at camp. ThenI
had to wait for a vacancy and I finally got this drum. I used to drive
my parents mad.
At seventeen, he became a professional musician and joined a
band called the Primitives. For three years he kept the beat on tour
in Italy, playing a collection of R'n'B oldies and weak band originals.
On returning to England, there was a dizzying sequence of sessions
and a band called Spring, who recorded an album for RCA without
much commercial or critical success. The critics thought it was
pretentious, and in retrospect, it was.
He then moved to Dave Edmunds' Rockfield Studios in South
Wales, to a not particularly lucrative job as house drummer: 'You'd
have to ask for forty pence for fags.' However, it did give Pick an
opportunity to work with an impressively varied collection of artists,
among them Bert Jansch, Howard Werth, Michael Chapman and
Del Shannon
He met up with Mark at the house of a mutual friend, where, Mark
claims, 'He was busy starving to death.' When Pick came down to
Farrar House, the effect was immediately obvious to all. John says:
For me, as a bass player, to be playing with Pick Withers was
fantastic for a start. I'd never played with anybody as good as him.
I really felt very shy, initially, about playing. He used to play ina
folk club and he was very delicate - nowhere near how he ended
up, thrashing the kit, as he put it. A great player, then, and I think he
became a better player over the years, though he'd probably
dispute that. He certainly didn't like some of the aspects of
rock' n'roll, the fact that it had to be four to the bar. He didn't like to do
straightforward drumming too much".

And later...

"Ed says: 'We don't really know why Pick left. I think it's a
combination of reasons. It had been on the cards for a long time that
he was unhappy with touring; not the playing, but the time spent
away from home. During the making of Love Over Gold, Pick
conceived in his mind certain things that I don't think have much
foundation in fact- for instance, that drums no longer playedan
important part in Dire Straits. Another comment he made to me was
that: "If I can't play drums with Weather Report, Im going to give
up.'" Pick completed his work on the album and left the band on 23
June.


Mark says: 'He's in Wales with his baby and his wife and he wants
to learn vibes and piano. He said he wasn't happy with his drums.
Touring is tough. If we'd been eighteen when the first album started
going nuts all over the world, we'd probably be lucky to be alive
right now. I think it's only the fact that we had some semblance of
sanity early on that we managed to get through it more or less intact.
John agrees: 'One of the important things to remember is that
when the band became successful, neither Pick nor David could
handle it. Some people can, They take it for what it is, enjoy it and all
the rest of it. But David was never happy with it, although he would
love to be successful himself as a songwriter. Pick was the same. It's
something that comes from your upbringing - you prefer to be the
underdog, almost, rather than be on top."

Not sure I like John's angle really on this,  maybe they didn't get on.  Anyway Pick is a fabulous drummer.

OfflineChris W

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2025, 09:24:01 AM »
John says some bizarre things and that absolutely ranks up there. It's sad that he has to say something negative about Pick in order to explain him leaving.

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2025, 09:59:48 AM »
John says some bizarre things and that absolutely ranks up there. It's sad that he has to say something negative about Pick in order to explain him leaving.

Absolutely. What a stupid thing to say.
"You can't polish a doo-doo" - Mark Knopfler

OfflineChris W

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2025, 12:17:30 PM »
https://youtu.be/t-omCFfltaU?si=SjZ4r6E8u_sZJing

The first two reasons given were the volume and the shift towards 'stadium rock' style songs.
He then talks about a whole 'raft of personal issues'.

Offlinethe visitor

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2025, 01:17:44 PM »
John says some bizarre things and that absolutely ranks up there. It's sad that he has to say something negative about Pick in order to explain him leaving.

Totally.  I get the impression at the time this book was written, after the Love Over Gold tour there was some inflated 'last man standing' egos and where quotes about 'being dead if they were ten years younger when it started' and having to 'love all of it' originate from.

The point about upbringing just makes John sound like a bit of a pompous snob.  But then this was the guy who had enough money to finance a demo, open is own record shop whilst an artist and fashioned his own bass guitar at his childhood boarding school.  Pick came through a different route perhaps.

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2025, 02:50:22 PM »
The point about upbringing just makes John sound like a bit of a pompous snob.  But then this was the guy who had enough money to finance a demo, open is own record shop whilst an artist and fashioned his own bass guitar at his childhood boarding school.  Pick came through a different route perhaps.

Absolutely. Sounds like the kind of thing Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg would come out with. I wonder what element of John's upbringing made him happy to kiss MK's arse all his life.
"You can't polish a doo-doo" - Mark Knopfler

OfflineRobson

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2025, 03:16:04 PM »
If John had logged in here the narrative would have been different.
I know the way I can see by the moonlight
Clear as the day
Now come on woman, come follow me home

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2025, 05:15:01 PM »
He's absolutely free to come on here and clarify matters as Chris and Ed have done.
"You can't polish a doo-doo" - Mark Knopfler

Offlinethe visitor

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2025, 05:18:57 PM »
If John had logged in here the narrative would have been different.

Perhaps.  But the extract from the book is a quote which is always going to be a published quote in black and white; no narrative to dispute there. This is why I posted the extract.

If John did come on here, then that would be great. I'd be interested in his mindset at the time that made him comment in that way, and whether he reflects differently now on the underdog comment.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2025, 05:22:04 PM by the visitor »

OfflineChris W

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #26 on: Today at 09:34:06 AM »
I wonder what element of John's upbringing made him happy to kiss MK's arse all his life.

Dire Straits made him what he is. It's really all about his financial bottom line. By OES it was really more like a Knopfler solo project, with Mark making all the final decisions. John went a long with it and no surprise why. I think he's basically a good guy, but says some ungracious things some times.

Offlinermarques821

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #27 on: Today at 01:26:59 PM »
The usual suspects making their usual ridiculous comments. Now even John gets accused and attacked because of a quote from 1982.

The topics almost always end up in accusations and attacks, even to the band members and even because of quotes made 43 years ago. The good people that used to come here clearly no longer do, and now we only have the circle of dustyvalentino, Chris W sharing Bill Gates quotes and saying that John Illsley is like Boris Johnson and he "kissed MK's ass all his life"

It's sad what this place has become and even sadder that it's still open.

Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #28 on: Today at 02:22:29 PM »
As people say in my country, what does the ass have to do with the pants? This kind of self-restraint or self-censorship, at the end of the day, will prevent us from speaking about anything.
"You can't polish a doo-doo" - Mark Knopfler

OfflineLove Expresso

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Re: Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
« Reply #29 on: Today at 06:59:42 PM »
The usual suspects making their usual ridiculous comments. Now even John gets accused and attacked because of a quote from 1982.

The topics almost always end up in accusations and attacks, even to the band members and even because of quotes made 43 years ago. The good people that used to come here clearly no longer do, and now we only have the circle of dustyvalentino, Chris W sharing Bill Gates quotes and saying that John Illsley is like Boris Johnson and he "kissed MK's ass all his life"

It's sad what this place has become and even sadder that it's still open.

I had a look through your recent posts and I thought that many of them were attacking (especially Chris W who seems to trigger you with anything he is posting) and rather aggressive. So it astonished me to read your judgement about this forum and some key members. I couldn't care less, just sayin'. 

LE
I don't want no sugar in it, thank you very much!

 

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