A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: knopfler1 on October 12, 2020, 03:09:52 PM
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Hi all!
I just picked up the "New" DS Studio Albums box set and while I was looking at the notes that come with each disc, i noticed something i hadn't seen before. On the Brothers in Arms sheet it says "Thanks to the following for helping make the record" with Eric Clapton's name at the end of the fairly long list.
Does anyone know what his involvement was?
This was new info to me and as far as i know he isn't playing on any of the tracks on record.
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I remember reading somewhere that EC borrowed MK a couple of guitars. Don’t know more than that, but I suppose they were acoustic flat tops as I don’t think The Man’s Too Strong sounds like an Ovation Adamas, which was what he was using at the time. I guess he was trying to find a proper D12.
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Yes some Clapton's guitars used by Mark is the reason. Behind The Sun and BIA were both recorded at AIR Montserrat studios.
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Ahh interesting! Thanks for the info 😊
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I remember reading somewhere that EC borrowed MK a couple of guitars. Don’t know more than that, but I suppose they were acoustic flat tops as I don’t think The Man’s Too Strong sounds like an Ovation Adamas, which was what he was using at the time. I guess he was trying to find a proper D12.
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Actually I read in some interviews that MK said it was an ovation what he played in "The man's too strong", and obviously he's also picking a national, and doing some slide on the national as well...
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I remember reading somewhere that EC borrowed MK a couple of guitars. Don’t know more than that, but I suppose they were acoustic flat tops as I don’t think The Man’s Too Strong sounds like an Ovation Adamas, which was what he was using at the time. I guess he was trying to find a proper D12.
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Actually I read in some interviews that MK said it was an ovation what he played in "The man's too strong", and obviously he's also picking a national, and doing some slide on the national as well...
I stand corrected.
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I always thought this was a bit of a 'vanity' credit, even if he did borrow a guitar. From memory it features at the end of a very long list and thus has big impact. I wonder if MK borrowed any guitars from less famous friends on previous albums that didn't get a mention.
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I remember reading somewhere that EC borrowed MK a couple of guitars. Don’t know more than that, but I suppose they were acoustic flat tops as I don’t think The Man’s Too Strong sounds like an Ovation Adamas, which was what he was using at the time. I guess he was trying to find a proper D12.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Actually I read in some interviews that MK said it was an ovation what he played in "The man's too strong", and obviously he's also picking a national, and doing some slide on the national as well...
I stand corrected.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm actually curious about which guitar Clapton lend to the BIA recordings... I'd say that MK guitars for that sessions were his owns Gibson Les Paul, Fender Strat (or Schecter), the ovation, the national and the black Pensa Shur they used connected to, I think it was synclavier. I'm also curious about what involvement had Jack Sonni at that sessions in Montserrat and/or NY, as all guitars sounds as played by MK to me...
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I'm actually curious about which guitar Clapton lend to the BIA recordings... I'd say that MK guitars for that sessions were his owns Gibson Les Paul, Fender Strat (or Schecter), the ovation, the national and the black Pensa Shur they used connected to, I think it was synclavier. I'm also curious about what involvement had Jack Sonni at that sessions in Montserrat and/or NY, as all guitars sounds as played by MK to me...
Jack said here that he played the synth-guitar heavy chords on the man's too strong
He also could have played acoustic guitar on WOL, but not sure, and even rhythm guitar on SFA, but not sure again
And Mark plays Jack's guitar on One world
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I'm actually curious about which guitar Clapton lend to the BIA recordings... I'd say that MK guitars for that sessions were his owns Gibson Les Paul, Fender Strat (or Schecter), the ovation, the national and the black Pensa Shur they used connected to, I think it was synclavier. I'm also curious about what involvement had Jack Sonni at that sessions in Montserrat and/or NY, as all guitars sounds as played by MK to me...
Jack said here that he played the synth-guitar heavy chords on the man's too strong
He also could have played acoustic guitar on WOL, but not sure, and even rhythm guitar on SFA, but not sure again
And Mark plays Jack's guitar on One world
I thought that the guitar on One World was MK playing the Pensa Shur without the Synclavier effects... which guitar was Jack's?
Do you have a list or something? that sessions were always very curious to me...
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I'm actually curious about which guitar Clapton lend to the BIA recordings... I'd say that MK guitars for that sessions were his owns Gibson Les Paul, Fender Strat (or Schecter), the ovation, the national and the black Pensa Shur they used connected to, I think it was synclavier. I'm also curious about what involvement had Jack Sonni at that sessions in Montserrat and/or NY, as all guitars sounds as played by MK to me...
I got the idea he may have borrowed a flat top acoustic from things he stated in interviews about not having a proper acoustic guitar.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'm actually curious about which guitar Clapton lend to the BIA recordings... I'd say that MK guitars for that sessions were his owns Gibson Les Paul, Fender Strat (or Schecter), the ovation, the national and the black Pensa Shur they used connected to, I think it was synclavier. I'm also curious about what involvement had Jack Sonni at that sessions in Montserrat and/or NY, as all guitars sounds as played by MK to me...
I got the idea he may have borrowed a flat top acoustic from things he stated in interviews about not having a proper acoustic guitar.
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Maybe that's it, if the Ovation was the only acoustic guitar MK had for that sessions (nor sure about that, should check that picture with John playing bass and all the guitars beind him) maybe they needed a proper acoustic for Walk of life rythm guitar...
(https://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/styles/news_large/s3/imagelibrary/c/classicdirestraits6-6PQ9nd8LoFhJajdMIw8Sw3j6ojP9jROo.jpg)
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I'm actually curious about which guitar Clapton lend to the BIA recordings... I'd say that MK guitars for that sessions were his owns Gibson Les Paul, Fender Strat (or Schecter), the ovation, the national and the black Pensa Shur they used connected to, I think it was synclavier. I'm also curious about what involvement had Jack Sonni at that sessions in Montserrat and/or NY, as all guitars sounds as played by MK to me...
Jack said here that he played the synth-guitar heavy chords on the man's too strong
He also could have played acoustic guitar on WOL, but not sure, and even rhythm guitar on SFA, but not sure again
And Mark plays Jack's guitar on One world
I thought that the guitar on One World was MK playing the Pensa Shur without the Synclavier effects... which guitar was Jack's?
Do you have a list or something? that sessions were always very curious to me...
here are some of my speculations with interviews, clips, etc... :
https://www.mk-guitar.com/gear-on-all-songs-for-all-albums-wiki/gear-on-album-brothers-in-arms/
and Ingo's article relied by Jack's info :
https://www.mk-guitar.com/2012/06/08/guitar-and-amp-used-for-the-solos-on-one-world/
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Regarding the Brothers in arms recording, I read on wikipedia, and searched google and found info on other sites, about a certain ANDY KANAVAN joining Dire Straits very briefly during that period, apparently before Terry re-joined the band for the BIA tour...
It is the first time in my life that I read about this person... anyone knew anything about him and being part of DS, even briefly?
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Regarding the Brothers in arms recording, I read on wikipedia, and searched google and found info on other sites, about a certain ANDY KANAVAN joining Dire Straits very briefly during that period, apparently before Terry re-joined the band for the BIA tour...
It is the first time in my life that I read about this person... anyone knew anything about him and being part of DS, even briefly?
Thanks for identifying this. To this day, I have never heard that name in connection with Dire Straits until you mention it here. It seems odd that a drummer would join a band in a period between record and tour, but actually appear on neither. Perhaps he tried out for the tour in rehearsals but never got hired? I too would be interested to know more - or could this just be a 1984 case of history being re-written on the internet?? Spooky.
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interesting Jbaent!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Kanavan
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Regarding the Brothers in arms recording, I read on wikipedia, and searched google and found info on other sites, about a certain ANDY KANAVAN joining Dire Straits very briefly during that period, apparently before Terry re-joined the band for the BIA tour...
It is the first time in my life that I read about this person... anyone knew anything about him and being part of DS, even briefly?
Ed has told me that he has never heard of this guy and it’s complete rubbish.
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Regarding the Brothers in arms recording, I read on wikipedia, and searched google and found info on other sites, about a certain ANDY KANAVAN joining Dire Straits very briefly during that period, apparently before Terry re-joined the band for the BIA tour...
It is the first time in my life that I read about this person... anyone knew anything about him and being part of DS, even briefly?
Ed has told me that he has never heard of this guy and it’s complete rubbish.
for real? lol, in the days before the innerweb, anything could be claimed i guess
just wondering; nod to uncle Ed here, if it is possible AT ALL that this guy's stint was so brief that he would not have known about it? as it was deemed irrelevant to relay? if not, jeez, so silly to make such claims..
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The next post is from Ed Bicknell. Thank you Ed once again from all of us fans for setting the record straight with the facts, it is most appreciated.
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Here’s what happened FROM MEMORY and from checking my paperwork….. a bit long winded but I know you like FACTS.
Terry joined after Pick left on my recommendation after the LOG recording which Pick played on along with a drum machine on ID called Cecil. .
He remained with DS up to and including the Nelson Mandela show in 1988 ( last show he played) but wasn’t “let go” until OES recording ( as you know it’s unclear to me/him as to why).
The band rehearsed the BIA material at Phil Manzanera’s ( Roxy Music ) studio in Chertsey just outside London Oct 2-31 1984 ( with Terry ).
Nov 1- travel to Montserrat, West Indies.
BIA album recorded at Air Studios, Montserrat Nov 3-Dec 21 1984.
Terry was present throughout but many of the drum parts he recorded ( not intro to MFN or WOL ) were replaced across two days by Omar Hakim who flew down from NY.
I imagine he was recommended by Neil Dorfsman. I can’t recall the exact dates.
Terry stayed on ( for rec co and tour programme photos etc and in case he was needed ) until they all returned to UK on Dec 22 where it was raining. .
Amazingly they had Christmas and New Year OFF…last time off for quite a while.
They returned to Montserrat on Jan 1 1985 ( I don't think Terry went…..no drummer required ).
Jan 2 -off.
Recorded in Montserrat Jan 3 - February 6 1985.
Feb 7 - travel to NY.
Recorded at Power Station NY February 8-March 10 1985 (overdubs, vocals etc….no drummer required ).
March 11-travel to London.
Mixing at Air Studios, London March 12-30 with band tour rehearsals taking place simultaneously.
We were running way behind schedule and had to leave UK on March 31 to undertake some press and promo in Paris from April 2 so Mark rehearsed with the band ( including Terry) during the day and mixed with Neil D at night!
YES. He was fucked, exhausted, no idea how he did that……🕺.
The whole band (including Terry) went to Paris March 31, then flew to Dubrovnik for band rehearsals April 5-14 and Split April 15-26 for production rehearsals ( full crew and gear ) .
April 27 travel to Israel.
April 30. BIA tour begins ( including Terry ) in Jerusalem.
Terry performed ( magnificently) on every show on the tour, didn’t miss one, up to April 1986.
According to Kanavan’s web site he was recognised as a “capable drummer”.
We needed ( and always had ) drummers who were a bit more than capable!
He is not mentioned on Killing Joke’s website.
He is mentioned amongst "past members" on Enigma’s site but not in the text. Since Michael Cretu ( Enigma) uses electronic drums most of the time I wonder what he was doing…….plugging them in?
He is mentioned amongst "past members" on The Maisonette's site but not in the text.
He is mentioned on Alan Parson’s site ..” percussion 1993 ” but not in the text and that is way after the BIA period.
The link to DS on his site has been removed.
According to the text he was working as a music tutor in the “early 1980’s “ …so IF we engaged him HOW did we find him or even hear of him, and what for?
I have no idea as to the validity of any of these claims ( which doesn’t mean they aren’t correct, but it’s THE WEB folks).
I checked with my office staff and Terry Kilburn ( MK News) .
No one has heard of him.
I do not have any contact details for him and neither do any of them.
We did not pay him ( for what? ) .
We did not organise any travel for him ( maybe he sat on Terry’s lap but that’s risky, it is not a stable surface), and he definitely did not go to Montserrat or New York ( why? )
He is not credited on the BIA sleeve/artwork but is briefly mentioned on the BIA website ( which of course no one involved actually wrote least of all me or my office ! ).
I can confirm Jimmy Maelen RIP did the BIA percussion ( brilliant guy ).
So 100% he is not on the record.
The vague implication is that this guy was somehow “recruited” between New Year 1985 and the tour start, but when, by whom, for how long, for what…drums or percussion ( which Joop was doing) and where did Terry go when this was supposedly going on ?
IF he was where/when did he audition or rehearse…see date schedule above ?
Since Omar H and Jimmy M had ALREADY done the record and Terry was ALREADY set for the tour ( eg visas applied for USA , air tickets and hotels booked, cymbals polished etc ) WHY would we have approached someone else?
Incidentally Terry never “ rejoined ”…he NEVER LEFT.
OR…did that happen without me or anyone in our organisation being told and somehow it took place in that mad schedule I’ve laid out above on a day when just by chance I didn't go to the studio and/or rehearsal space, ( which when they’d moved to London was every day) ?
Until this speculation arose I had never heard of this guy, never met him, never spoken to him and for 40 years no one has ever asked me about him or brought up him “joining”, and critically we DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME to go hunting about for a drummer for fux sake, we had to get the record/artwork finished !
He certainly never performed with DS in public…….I WAS THERE!
So...…..Pottel….YES it’s possible in the time honoured tradition of DS ie ANYTHING is possible ( just don’t tell the management ) but likely?
Short of asking MK or JI about something that might have happened 40 years ago which I’m not going to do I think you can put this to bed unless Mr Kanavan sees this and corrects me ( no prob if he does..I’d be fascinated ..I agree it seems such an unlikely thing to claim ).
Incidentally Eric Clapton had nothing to do with the recording of BIA but could easily have loaned MK a guitar or two ..response 6 from The Visitor sounds likely ( the “ vanity ” bit ).
Guitarists lending/swopping/giving guitars to other guitarists is VERY common.
And no, I don't know what guitars were used but Jack only played on TMTS ( synth guitar), he did not play on OW, SFA, WOL.
Here endeth today’s lesson and what fun it was 😱.
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Wikipedia is put together by ordinary people, not the definitive experts.
I am 99% certain no one with any Dire Straits connection has ever input any data to the DS or BIA wikipedia pages.
I have a wikipedia page! Yipee. There are several things wrong on it, but I really can't be bothered to go through the process of trying to edit the entries and I'm not even sure I'm allowed to. Wikipedia banned subjects from editing their own page because people were airbrushing the facts or deleting the bits they didn't like.
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Well, you could list the mistakes here, so some friendly and skilled AMIT member might do the job for you. Finally get some reward from being a member here ;D
LE
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Check this link, Kanavan is on it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20151028115759/http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/music/groups/direstraits.htm (https://web.archive.org/web/20151028115759/http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/music/groups/direstraits.htm)
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^^ Which is also rather inaccurate ^^
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Well, you could list the mistakes here
It says I was born in Blackpool, Lancashire, but actually it was Wimbledon, just outside London.
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I thought I knew the history of the DS quite well. Andy Kanavan??? I had never heard of him. You learn all your life :D
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Even if you audition for something, spend some time with the people, appear on stage with an artist almost by accident, I think it's uncool to claim it as a credit.
I've appeared on stage with Ringo, Steve Wonder, Randy Crawford and more and don't have any of them on my credit list.
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Here’s what happened FROM MEMORY and from checking my paperwork….. a bit long winded but I know you like FACTS.
He (TERRY) remained with DS up to and including the Nelson Mandela show in 1988 ( last show he played)
Hi uncle ED, the last show Terry performed with Dire Straits was one further charity gig : Mayfair Ballroom, Newcastle, UK, 9th October 1989
"Mark lead his supergroup Dire Straits infront of just 700 people at the Mayfair Ballroom, Newcastle. The gala dinner concert was in support of North East Personality of the Year, Joanne Gillespie, 11 years old, who wrote the book 'Brave Heart' about her fight against cancer. The charity raised more than £35,000. Sadly, Joanne died in 1993. The picture below shows Joanne Gillespie (with tongue out) and her sister Sarah together with Dire Straits"
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/101089.htm
Cherry on the cake, Dire Strait did even perform a cover song !
Intro
Sultans of swing
Two young lovers
Romeo and Juliet
So far away
Money for nothing
Nadine
Twisting by the pool
(http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/newcastle1989.jpg)
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And there was Brendan Croker.
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Jack only played on TMTS ( synth guitar), he did not play on OW, SFA, WOL.
yes, but Mark used Jack's guitar on OW
https://www.mk-guitar.com/2012/06/08/guitar-and-amp-used-for-the-solos-on-one-world/
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Well, you could list the mistakes here
It says I was born in Blackpool, Lancashire, but actually it was Wimbledon, just outside London.
It’s clearly because YOU ROCK.
Boom boom.
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The next post is a further update from Ed, thanks again!
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A PS to yesterday’s post.
Let me pick up on the comments which appear after my waffle, treated as one item ie replies 20 - 28
I’m 100% sure Chris is correct….NO ONE professionally ( or personally I think ) has ever had any input into the DS website ( or associated ) and I've no idea who put ANY of the DS/MK info up there ( I’m not talking about MK News or similar).
So take all of it with a HUGE “pinch of salt” as we say here in the UK.
The “ Robinson Library “ page is a good example of what I mean ..first time I've bothered to look and definitely the last.
Let's play a game …
I will give you the number of mistakes per para, you guess what they are.
PARA 1 ….3.
PARA 2 ….5 ( some huge ones)
PARA 3 ….2 ( plus several non mentions of related subjects)
PARA 4 ….1
PARA 5 ….OK!
PARA 6 ….2
PARA 7 ….Andy Kavanan, apparently copied from similar mis-informed posts.
PARA 8 ….2
PARA 9…..OK!
PARA 10….2
Now these are not earth shattering mistakes/omissions and nobody will lose sleep but 17 errors…...nearly all of which are easily checkable and in the case of PARA 2 sloppy ( chronology for example ) …...is alot for one pretty short piece which purports to be encyclopedic .
Let’s see if any of you can get, say, ten of them.
First prize …..one of my drumsticks.
Second prize…the other one.
Picking up on Chris W’s point ( 26) I have played drums with Alexis Korner, Champion Jack Dupree, Jess Conrad , Mogul Thrash/AWB, Eric Clapton ( a rehearsal which I fucked up ), Dire Straits ( many sound-checks ), NHB’S ( obviously), Lonnie Donegan, and I don’t have a credit list AT ALL.
Re Terry…I stand corrected, had forgotten and that was a fun night.
That’s it pop pickers.
ED
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This topic reminded me of an excellent interview with Neil Dorfsman, which is an excellent complement that Uncle Ed brought, perhaps some have not seen it yet. It is worth watching!
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing
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This topic reminded me of an excellent interview with Neil Dorfsman, which is an excellent complement that Uncle Ed brought, perhaps some have not seen it yet. It is worth watching!
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing
Wow!! Thanks, never seen that before! Very informative!
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This topic reminded me of an excellent interview with Neil Dorfsman, which is an excellent complement that Uncle Ed brought, perhaps some have not seen it yet. It is worth watching!
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing
Beware Neil mistakenly mentions "Les Paul Junior" instead of "Les Paul Standard".