A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: dustyvalentino on February 18, 2024, 11:43:31 AM
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From 54 mins
https://youtu.be/IciiR1BJRP4?si=cCFJFYIbfgJX45ns
He doesn’t come out and say he plays on the entire album, but implies he did quite a chunk of it…
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Not surprised.
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Not surprised.
Based on John's playing abilities or...?
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He mentions Walk of Life and One World... After all that time in Montserrat... :think
He says that "Mark had fallen and injured himself". Meaning John, presumably?
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So, do we think John actually hurt his hand , or was this some face saving?
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It's all a bit odd. One can see why they would get another guy for slap bass in One World, but why another player on Walk of Life? Doesn't seem difficult, does it?
They did the same thing with the drums, of course, but then drums will often be much more noticeable than bass.
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So, do we think John actually hurt his hand , or was this some face saving?
I'm surprised they bothered with such a story to begin with, if they did.
Someone, take this to Guy ;D
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So, do we think John actually hurt his hand , or was this some face saving?
I'm surprised they bothered with such a story to begin with, if they did.
Someone, take this to Guy ;D
Guy’s not going to say anything that would embarrass John.
Would be odd for Neil to make it up. He even said something like, “I guess it’s ok for me to admit this after all this time “.
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True. He also said that John was there, in the studio. But the notion of having to record bass (of all things) after a long period of recording sounds very odd. Unless there was something technically wrong with the recordings, it would seem that Mark simply wasn't happy with the playing.
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This story has already been discussed earier on the forum, in 2023.
Nothing really new.
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This story has already been discussed earier on the forum, in 2023.
Nothing really new.
We discussed previously that he played on One World, but not his claim that he played also on Walk of Life and possibly more.
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This story has already been discussed earier on the forum, in 2023.
Nothing really new.
We discussed previously that he played on One World, but not his claim that he played also on Walk of Life and possibly more.
Ok.
The thing on BIA is that only One World does not sound as John.
And we know that Tony Levin was also part of the game.
But they all went in John's shoes.
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John not playing on WOL is in itself a great surprise, and like Dusty says, Neil makes it sound as though he played on several songs. It's a biggie indeed! This is about John Illsley, founding member, there through thick and thin, Mr Rock Solid. Technically not the greatest, but always 'right' for DS - at least that has been the general understanding. (Apart from One World.) Why anyone would brush that off as nothing is beyond me.
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John not playing on WOL is in itself a great surprise, and like Dusty says, Neil makes it sound as though he played on several songs. It's a biggie indeed! This is about John Illsley, founding member, there through thick and thin, Mr Rock Solid. Technically not the greatest, but always 'right' for DS - at least that has been the general understanding. (Apart from One World.) Why anyone would brush that off as nothing is beyond me.
Yeah, I thought it was quite a revelation, seems I am more easily intrigued than others!
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Not surprised.
Based on John's playing abilities or...?
Based on having worked with Neil Dorfsman, who nagged McCartney to have me replaced.
Also idle chatter I've heard about the BIA sessions.
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I thought we all knew that drums and bass got replaced by others on the BIA-album. One World, YLT and Why Bother certainly don’t sound like John, and I’ve always wondered about the rest (MfN and Ride AtR especially). It’s been so many years now, so I’ve forgotten were I have it all from, but maybe from several Dorfsman interviews here and there? The last albums that sound like Dire Straits are Communique (studio) and Alchemy (live) IMO :)
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I thought we all knew that drums and bass got replaced by others on the BIA-album. One World, YLT and Why Bother certainly don’t sound like John, and I’ve always wondered about the rest (MfN and Ride AtR especially). It’s been so many years now, so I’ve forgotten were I have it all from, but maybe from several Dorfsman interviews here and there? The last albums that sound like Dire Straits are Communique (studio) and Alchemy (live) IMO :)
I think we all knew that John didn't play on Why Worry and One World, but I don't recall any serious questioning anywhere about any of teh other tracks.
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As far as I read, like many of you, it was just Neil Jason playing on One World and Tony Levin on Why Worry, but it's also known they did quite some overdubs in New York after Montserrat recordings so maybe they asked Neil play bass for some tracks more for whatever reason.
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one thing we may forget about here is that, just like mark spent a lot of time playing on the Steely dan album and then only appeared for 7 sec
the same may be the case here.
he may have indeed played on a version of WOL that just did not end up on the album??
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one thing we may forget about here is that, just like mark spent a lot of time playing on the Steely dan album and then only appeared for 7 sec
the same may be the case here.
he may have indeed played on a version of WOL that just did not end up on the album??
True. Although the Record Plant sessions were at the end of the recording process.
Would be odd to decide the bass wasn't up to scratch, get someone ot re-record, then decided the first one was OK. But not impossible.
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Not surprised.
Based on John's playing abilities or...?
Based on having worked with Neil Dorfsman, who nagged McCartney to have me replaced.
Also idle chatter I've heard about the BIA sessions.
Thank you Chris! Sorry about the offtopic, but any change for new videos in your Youtube channel? I suggest Tunnel of love from the new DS box, but would appreciate also other than Dire Straits tracks.
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just like mark spent a lot of time playing on the Steely dan album and then only appeared for 7 sec
the same may be the case here.
he may have indeed played on a version of WOL that just did not end up on the album??
It's funny. Just as in the discussion about Ed Bicknell not socialising with Mark, people are reaching for an alternative that feels nicer.
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I would agree with the above statement that RATR sounds unusual also, for John.
And of course they smoothed all of this over quite nicely with the "Thank you" liner notes on BIA - lots of names, very few specifics. ;D
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Anyway, whatever they did, it sounds great, Mark must be a genius! ;D (kidding)
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Anyway, whatever they did, it sounds great, Mark must be a genius! ;D (kidding)
I'd say that Neil Dorfsman has a lot of to do about how it sounds and involving Neil Jason, Tony Levin etc as he had with Omar Hakim replacing Terry.
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Anyway, whatever they did, it sounds great, Mark must be a genius! ;D (kidding)
I'd say that Neil Dorfsman has a lot of to do about how it sounds and involving Neil Jason, Tony Levin etc as he had with Omar Hakim replacing Terry.
You can't just replace band members though. I mean they aren't session musicians but members of a band. Doesn't that make it less of a DS album with two members, one founding, being replaced?
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You can't just replace band members though.
You can if you get the band leader (and/or songwriter) to agree the album would be better with replacements.
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Anyway, whatever they did, it sounds great, Mark must be a genius! ;D (kidding)
I'd say that Neil Dorfsman has a lot of to do about how it sounds and involving Neil Jason, Tony Levin etc as he had with Omar Hakim replacing Terry.
You can't just replace band members though. I mean they aren't session musicians but members of a band. Doesn't that make it less of a DS album with two members, one founding, being replaced?
Part of it might just be a feel thing though.
The whole band LOVE Glenn Worf and his playing but don’t forget that Guy’s initial bass recording made the Final Cut on Redbud Tree as they didn’t feel Glenn could improve it.
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Anyway, whatever they did, it sounds great, Mark must be a genius! ;D (kidding)
I'd say that Neil Dorfsman has a lot of to do about how it sounds and involving Neil Jason, Tony Levin etc as he had with Omar Hakim replacing Terry.
You can't just replace band members though. I mean they aren't session musicians but members of a band. Doesn't that make it less of a DS album with two members, one founding, being replaced?
Obviously they did with Illsley in BIA, as he was replaced at least in two songs for sure!
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Well, since every BIA tracks have been performed live during the 85/86 tour, and we even have at least one sbd recording for each, so we know how John is dealing with them.
But studio recording remains another animal.
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Illsley's bass lines are excellent and sound very deep on the first two albums and on LOG.
In MM the power has been reduced (the basslines of Tunnel and Skateaway are perfect).
The bass sound of BBC and Rainbow is notable.
On and off in Alchemy and OtN.
The DS sound without Illsley's bass loses half of its potential.
Decisive together with Pick.
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Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).
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Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).
Not really “bad” though, Eliminator is awesome!
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Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).
Not really “bad” though, Eliminator is awesome!
The drum intro on Gimme Your Lovin'
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Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).
Not really “bad” though, Eliminator is awesome!
I mean in the sense of the musicians listed on the cover actually playing on the records. (And even when they stopped using drum machines in the 90s, the drummer still wasn't Frank Beard most of the time...)
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Illsley's bass lines are excellent and sound very deep on the first two albums and on LOG.
In MM the power has been reduced (the basslines of Tunnel and Skateaway are perfect).
The bass sound of BBC and Rainbow is notable.
On and off in Alchemy and OtN.
The DS sound without Illsley's bass loses half of its potential.
Decisive together with Pick.
:clap
I think Communiqué is especially notable with Once Upon a Time, News, Follow Me Home and the title track all pretty much driven by the bass line.
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Illsley's bass lines are excellent and sound very deep on the first two albums and on LOG.
In MM the power has been reduced (the basslines of Tunnel and Skateaway are perfect).
The bass sound of BBC and Rainbow is notable.
On and off in Alchemy and OtN.
The DS sound without Illsley's bass loses half of its potential.
Decisive together with Pick.
How do you know Illsley played on all the songs pre Brothers In Arms? The sound is more down to the producers and engineers.
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You can't just replace band members though.
You can if you get the band leader (and/or songwriter) to agree the album would be better with replacements.
Exactly,
I'm not sure why any of us are even debating with someone like Chris who has extensive experience in a recording and live environment, especially pre-digital/pro tools and has first hand experience replacing drummers on albums, so the Terry Williams / Omar Hakim story regarding BIA is not a rare thing. In fact even as a kid I was always not convinced about the drumming, Actually I thought it was even perhaps programmed. I have mentioned this before on this forum but for example the drumming on Def Leppards 3rd album Pyromania to me always sounded programmed. It was too perfect... yet the revelation that Rick Allen didn't play on that album only came about a few years ago to many fans suprise. The irony is he played more on the albums after his accident...
There are loads of examples of ghost musicians so to speak on albums. Many of those musicians aren't even credited. Chris in fact I bet isn't allowed to list all the albums or songs he has worked on because it wasn't in the contract. Also out of respect. I could be wrong but i'm sure Chris can answer that.
An example I have is a band called Urge Overkill. A very popular underground grunge band in the early 90's under Steve Albini's stewardship... they used to play with the likes of Nirvana. They were more about the image than the music. Medallions, clothing, attitude. However when they went mainstream Albini got very annoyed and even would go on to admit that the band weren't great musicians. Fast forward to the rather delightful album Saturation, released in 1993, and that was critically acclaimed. An extremely polished effort unlike their previous releases which had a more dirty / grungy sound. However i've read various articles since that actually whilst the songs were written and sung by the band, a lot of the music was recorded by session musicians or the producer. Andy Kravitz, who was one of the producers on that album for example played most of Blackie Onnasis's drum parts (RIP.) Whilst the bass was down to Hugh Macdonald apparently (Bon Jovi) and in fact Chuck Treese played bass on the follow up album the excellent Exit The Dragon.
So the Illsley stat was not at all surprising. There will be hundreds of examples with regards to albums from the 80's / 90's but like Chris has mentioned these days you can correct mistakes so there isn't as much of a call for session musicians to replace part because you can just cut and paste or replace parts with programmed music. I loathe that sort of thing actually, and i'm quite critical of albums these days and the way they sound. Very generic, and you can't really get a sense of the recording studio, the ambience etc. Then again i'm a hypocrite as technology has allowed me to record my own material / albums... and IF I can't afford my drummer mate to record a session in a studio I can use programmed / sampled drum sounds. The average listener wouldn't be able to tell the difference but i'm sure most of you and Chris would!
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I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.
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I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.
As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.
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I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.
As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.
Yep, I suppose we're talking about 2 vastly differing disciplines really. Live performance speaks for itself but studio recording is open to a far wider range of approaches. Personally I see it as more akin to sculpting....
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I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.
As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.
Yep, I suppose we're talking about 2 vastly differing disciplines really. Live performance speaks for itself but studio recording is open to a far wider range of approaches. Personally I see it as more akin to sculpting....
It is said that the Rolling Stones have a couple of players, one of them a guitar player, playing behind the stage so, it seems that live there are some tricks as well.
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just like mark spent a lot of time playing on the Steely dan album and then only appeared for 7 sec
the same may be the case here.
he may have indeed played on a version of WOL that just did not end up on the album??
It's funny. Just as in the discussion about Ed Bicknell not socialising with Mark, people are reaching for an alternative that feels nicer.
Hey Pottel, where can I read that story about Ed Bicknell and his (non-)socialising with Mark?
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Part of it might just be a feel thing though.
The whole band LOVE Glenn Worf and his playing but don’t forget that Guy’s initial bass recording made the Final Cut on Redbud Tree as they didn’t feel Glenn could improve it.
Ironically, the only thing that COULD be improved on Redbud Tree (which is a true gem of a song) is Guy's synth. By "improved", I mean abandoned. Maybe they should have asked Glenn to play (nothing) on the synth. ::)
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Mostly people on stage play live in concert and mostly band members record on their albums.
There are exceptions but it's nowhere near the majority of cases.
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I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.
As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.
Yep, I suppose we're talking about 2 vastly differing disciplines really. Live performance speaks for itself but studio recording is open to a far wider range of approaches. Personally I see it as more akin to sculpting....
It is said that the Rolling Stones have a couple of players, one of them a guitar player, playing behind the stage so, it seems that live there are some tricks as well.
And playing very approximatly on some nights?
Come on...
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https://www.nme.com/news/music/kiss-9-1209494
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Roger Waters also use backing tracks in his shows, even for his vocals and bass parts, I remember a concert in Barcelona that I was close to the stage I listen to Roger´s voice and he wasn't at the mic, he hurried to the mic when he realised... and in other parts of the show you could listen some bass lines and Roger neither his other bass player were playing. After that I decided to not go to his next concerts. I totally understand you use backing tracks for effects, programings etc, but the main things in the songs, no, thank you.
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Roger Waters also use backing tracks in his shows, even for his vocals and bass parts, I remember a concert in Barcelona that I was close to the stage I listen to Roger´s voice and he wasn't at the mic, he hurried to the mic when he realised... and in other parts of the show you could listen some bass lines and Roger neither his other bass player were playing. After that I decided to not go to his next concerts. I totally understand you use backing tracks for effects, programings etc, but the main things in the songs, no, thank you.
How do you feel about the guitar in Corn Beef City live? :)
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Roger Waters also use backing tracks in his shows, even for his vocals and bass parts, I remember a concert in Barcelona that I was close to the stage I listen to Roger´s voice and he wasn't at the mic, he hurried to the mic when he realised...
I've only watched a couple of his recent live films, from the east couple of tours....and there is more than one bass player, also other people in the band are covering vocals.
I have no doubt Waters is weak on vocals and not up to the calibre of the rest of his (superb) band with his bass playing, but I think other 'real' people are playing the parts and singing to back him up.
The live version of 'Time' for example. Waters isn't even trying to look like he's playing the bass. I think it must be someone else in the backing band.
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I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.
As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.
Yep, I suppose we're talking about 2 vastly differing disciplines really. Live performance speaks for itself but studio recording is open to a far wider range of approaches. Personally I see it as more akin to sculpting....
It is said that the Rolling Stones have a couple of players, one of them a guitar player, playing behind the stage so, it seems that live there are some tricks as well.
And playing very approximatly on some nights?
Come on...
agree with DS1984. never heard of this thing about the Stones
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The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ
Bass players were credited on Doors albums. And they didn't play on all tracks.
some studio tracks were played with Manzarek on bass-keyboard
on the 1st album, Soul kitchen and Light my fire are the only two tracks on the album to feature a studio bassist.
others tracks are Manzreak on bass-keyboard
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/le-premier-album-des-doors-a-55-ans/
on strange days : Unhappy Girl, Horse Latitudes et When the Music’s Over doesn't have bass player
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-55-ans-les-doors-sortaient-strange-days/
on waiting for sun, all tracks have a bass player (Douglas Lubahn)
on soft parade, Morrison hotel and LA Woman, idem (differents musicians though, but always credited)
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Roger Waters also use backing tracks in his shows, even for his vocals and bass parts, I remember a concert in Barcelona that I was close to the stage I listen to Roger´s voice and he wasn't at the mic, he hurried to the mic when he realised... and in other parts of the show you could listen some bass lines and Roger neither his other bass player were playing. After that I decided to not go to his next concerts. I totally understand you use backing tracks for effects, programings etc, but the main things in the songs, no, thank you.
How do you feel about the guitar in Corn Beef City live? :)
Same that with the loops in Speedway. Just a little part added. Musical decoration.
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Roger Waters also use backing tracks in his shows, even for his vocals and bass parts, I remember a concert in Barcelona that I was close to the stage I listen to Roger´s voice and he wasn't at the mic, he hurried to the mic when he realised... and in other parts of the show you could listen some bass lines and Roger neither his other bass player were playing. After that I decided to not go to his next concerts. I totally understand you use backing tracks for effects, programings etc, but the main things in the songs, no, thank you.
How do you feel about the guitar in Corn Beef City live? :)
Same that with the loops in Speedway. Just a little part added. Musical decoration.
taotally different.
in speedway, it's a loop that is already on the studio version
on Corned Beef city, it's a sample emulating the guitar that is on the studio version
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https://www.nme.com/news/music/kiss-9-1209494
You can even go back to 1989 when the band was accused of using a pre recorded loop for Charlie Watts drum break during Rock and a Hard Place.
Just listen to different shows from one tour and you can judge what is really played live.
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Roger Waters also use backing tracks in his shows, even for his vocals and bass parts, I remember a concert in Barcelona that I was close to the stage I listen to Roger´s voice and he wasn't at the mic, he hurried to the mic when he realised... and in other parts of the show you could listen some bass lines and Roger neither his other bass player were playing. After that I decided to not go to his next concerts. I totally understand you use backing tracks for effects, programings etc, but the main things in the songs, no, thank you.
How do you feel about the guitar in Corn Beef City live? :)
Same that with the loops in Speedway. Just a little part added. Musical decoration.
taotally different.
in speedway, it's a loop that is already on the studio version
on Corned Beef city, it's a sample emulating the guitar that is on the studio version
Correct. And it’s not just a little part. It’s the main riff.
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From memory I recall Guy even messing around with the guitar lick in Corned Beef City, giving it a scratchy DJ sound from re-starting it mid-sound...
Poor song, poor choice to pre-record a guitar lick for no reason.
"Ain't too pretty, corned beef city", is that supposed to be a joke in the sense of being deliberately ridiculous lyric-wise?
Don't get me started! ;D
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From memory I recall Guy even messing around with the guitar lick in Corned Beef City, giving it a scratchy DJ sound from re-starting it mid-sound...
Poor song, poor choice to pre-record a guitar lick for no reason.
"Ain't too pretty, corned beef city", is that supposed to be a joke in the sense of being deliberately ridiculous lyric-wise?
Don't get me started! ;D
For me it’s been one of the highlights of the live show ever since the Privateering tour though. When he comes in on the slide it’s one of the best moments of the night for me.
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From memory I recall Guy even messing around with the guitar lick in Corned Beef City, giving it a scratchy DJ sound from re-starting it mid-sound...
Poor song, poor choice to pre-record a guitar lick for no reason.
"Ain't too pretty, corned beef city", is that supposed to be a joke in the sense of being deliberately ridiculous lyric-wise?
Don't get me started! ;D
For me it’s been one of the highlights of the live show ever since the Privateering tour though. When he comes in on the slide it’s one of the best moments of the night for me.
Bacon, egg and sausage
Double chips and beans
Tea and bread and butter
Mark recalling his breakfast from the day before. ;D
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Those lyrics are superb, they transport you to the working class life, to the days of workers presenting at the docks or whatever at 7am looking for work that day. That verse crosses generations. It’s rather clever! It’s a very English backdrop applicable from probably the 1950s to the 1980s. And perhaps again from the 2020s but that’s a different story.
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Love Corn Beef City.
I just find it bizarre that MK has five professional musicians playing guitar in his act but they need a sample for that part.
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I don't know the part, but a sample usually has a sound of it's own. That's usually the reason people are using them.
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I don't know the part, but a sample usually has a sound of it's own. That's usually the reason people are using them.
It is just a distorted guitar riff that repeats on an infinite loop, not many notes really, totally understandable that they used a sample instead of someone playing that.
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I don't know the part, but a sample usually has a sound of it's own. That's usually the reason people are using them.
It is just a distorted guitar riff that repeats on an infinite loop, not many notes really, totally understandable that they used a sample instead of someone playing that.
Except for the fact that if you have someone play it, it will actually sound, you know, LIVE ;D
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I don't know the part, but a sample usually has a sound of it's own. That's usually the reason people are using them.
It is just a distorted guitar riff that repeats on an infinite loop, not many notes really, totally understandable that they used a sample instead of someone playing that.
Except for the fact that if you have someone play it, it will actually sound, you know, LIVE ;D
I don't give a s*** to have someone playing that filling riff live, I actually don't like it at all!
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I don't know the part, but a sample usually has a sound of it's own. That's usually the reason people are using them.
It is just a distorted guitar riff that repeats on an infinite loop, not many notes really, totally understandable that they used a sample instead of someone playing that.
Except for the fact that if you have someone play it, it will actually sound, you know, LIVE ;D
I don't give a s*** to have someone playing that filling riff live, I actually don't like it at all!
I think the problem with this riff, which are many, is as follows: 1) You need an extra electric guitar in an open tuning to play it; 2) It's kind of tricky to play as it requires some fingerpicking, not simply strumming; 3) Not only that, it also has a wah-wah effect, gotta think about it as well; 4) As it's so prominent and recognisable in the song, the slightest mistake will stick out like a sore thumb, so better to play it perfectly each time.
So not only do you need to bring an extra guitar and pedal just for this riff and somebody skilled to play it, but it has to be good too. So you either take it out of the arrangement completely, like something Mark did in the early DS or just ask Guy to play a sample, it's so much easier. Overall, a great solution for this particular song. Hats off here, no critique at all. A perfect solution to a problem that not many people would even notice.
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Anyone who plays with Mark has to be a superior player, capable of playing any part, especially any part Mark originally played with his fingers. That's just a given.
Guitarists carry numerous pedals, as well as using amp modelling boxes that include fx.
So the key here is that the sampled riff has to have some vibe (sound and feel combo) that just isn't the same when played live.
Most drummers can play any drum loop live, but it is the sound and vibe of drum loops that make them different to a real player playing the part.
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I think that the explanation is simple: Mark felt that the riff oozed Mark Knopfler, and so did not want another player to play it. (Of course Richard could.)
Remember that, one of Guy's stated reasons for not doing Silvertown Blues live (many years ago) was that there were several MK guitar parts played simultaneously.
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I think Chris might underestimate the difficulty of Mark's stuff a little bit. I witnessed firsthand people who can breeze through the guitar playing amazing complicated jazz, or metal stuff but struggle like a beginner while playing some of the MK riffs. It's not easy stuff to play! So just having a great player in your band isn't enough, you practically need to clone Mark to pull some of the stuff off. I believe there are no musicians who can play truly anything.
I think that the explanation is simple: Mark felt that the riff oozed Mark Knopfler, and so did not want another player to play it. (Of course Richard could.)
Remember that, one of Guy's stated reasons for not doing Silvertown Blues live (many years ago) was that there were several MK guitar parts played simultaneously.
So yes, something along these lines.
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I think Chris might underestimate the difficulty of Mark's stuff a little bit.
Really???
Don't forget I rehearsed with DS for three months. At no point did Phil Palmer struggle to play anything Mark asked him to play.
Do you think Mark hires any guitarist that can't play anything he wants them to play?
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I think Chris might underestimate the difficulty of Mark's stuff a little bit.
Really???
Don't forget I rehearsed with DS for three months. At no point did Phil Palmer struggle to play anything Mark asked him to play.
Do you think Mark hires any guitarist that can't play anything he wants them to play?
Not at all! They're brilliant guitar players. I meant that you can't ask somebody to go out and play something like the "Money For Nothing" riff for Mark, it's something only he can and should do (on his show anyway). I think this little riff bears some distinctive MK style that only he can replicate, so it's either his way or the highway. It's not strumming Privateering like Richard or playing On Every Street like Phil is what I meant. It's not difficult, just too MK, or as you said, with a sound of its own.
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I meant that you can't ask somebody to go out and play something like the "Money For Nothing" riff for Mark,
You can, and people do.
My point was a sampled loop 'electronically' sounds different to a player playing the part. If you think they sampled the guitar on this song because no one else could play it well enough I'd say you were 100% wrong.
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Mark's style of playing is so different from many others that although there are people who can play the same notes it is VERY difficult to make it sound like Mark.
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None of which means they have to sample a guitar loop on one song - which is what we are talking about.
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None of which means they have to sample a guitar loop on one song - which is what we are talking about.
Correct. And I will respectfully disagree with my good friend jbaent. I don't consider it to be a minor thing. It's the first thing you hear after the drums start the song and the main riff in the song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us3p5iCI7VU
A sample being played in a band where you have Richard, Guy, John and Mike all playing guitar at different points.
And I don't buy the argument that they didn't want to set up another guitar for this "minor" part in a song - they brought another electric for John to play a tiny part in Prairie Wedding (I think), and Mike played a white electric on one track as well.
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It is clearly a two bar loop that has a feel and sound as a sample that Mark wants.
It is a super simple part that any other guitarist could play.
End of story.
I don't know WHY it would offend anyone???
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It is clearly a two bar loop that has a feel and sound as a sample that Mark wants.
It is a super simple part that any other guitarist could play.
End of story.
I don't know WHY it would offend anyone???
Not sure anyone is offended. I just found it amusing that in a band featuring 5 people who play guitar at various points they still use a sample.
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I've played along with drum loops thousands of times. It is an effect, it has a sound and feel that playing the part in real time does not replicate.