A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Chris W on February 25, 2025, 09:50:20 AM
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I said it in one of the current threads.
I completely know that most people are tired of the back and forth about Mark in the early 90's.
I just want to say, if you weren't in the room, you don't know. That's my whole opinion really, nothing more.
If Manu Katche says he didn't enjoy working with Mark because he was difficult, unpleasant. Take note and move on. Nothing is going to change by arguing about it.
The only reason I ever reply is because people who weren't there make up things about it, or contradict the facts. That's it.
Let's have discussions about Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler without guessing what it was like to be there.... and we can all move on and not have to have these debates ever again.
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I don't see why it's even a debate at this point, you have confirmed it, Ed has confirmed it, Phil even called Mark "an ogre" in a magazine interview that was released WHILE THE TOUR WAS STILL ONGOING!
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Ha, ha, yeah.
I witnessed Phil being picked on in not a very nice way.
He obviously decided to move on from it so he could work with Mark again after the OES tour and be one of DS Legacy's founding members.
I stopped doing DS Experience because it brought back too many unpleasant memories, despite Chris and Terence being super, super human beings.
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I stopped doing DS Experience because it brought back too many unpleasant memories, despite Chris and Terence being super, super human beings.
This is REALLY interesting, I'll be careful not to make too much of the comparison but it seems like it is a BIT like PTSD/Vietnam style flashbacks :o
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Did you notice that Mark barely talks about this period of his career? If at all? In John's book, he spoke about the OES period in fast-forward mode. They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully. That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy. Maybe we can learn something from him again. It reminds me of this legendary "Two monks and a Woman — Zen story":
A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.
The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman. Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.
The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.
Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”
The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”
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Did you notice that Mark barely talks about this period of his career? If at all? In John's book, he spoke about the OES period in fast-forward mode. They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully.
No, it's because in their eyes it wasn't wholly unsuccessful. Probably for both their least happy period of Dire Straits.
The album didn't build on BIA success and the tour was a struggle, initially financially, then mentally as it dragged on, show after show.
That IS why they don't talk about it. Again you are projecting from a position of knowing NONE of the facts.
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I stopped doing DS Experience because it brought back too many unpleasant memories, despite Chris and Terence being super, super human beings.
This is REALLY interestin
Yes, I had recurring stress dreams for a few years after the tour.
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They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully. That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.
MK is my musical hero, but I've accepted for a long time that heroes can be dicks too. What's in it for you to defend him? Believe me, I'm super fascinated by what happened after the BIA tour. From the outside, it seems like all the success went to his head, at least for a little while, maybe combined with personal problems in his life. He might be a brilliant songwriter and inventive guitarist, but he said countless times that he isn't a 'proper' musician, so while I think you should treat everybody you work with with respect, hearing about his behavior towards giants like Manu is not something I could ever defend.
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My aim with this topic is to draw a line under it all....especially by making a distinction between the people with personal experience - Manu, Pick, Me, Ed and the fans who are looking from the outside in. Most of the time people accept the limit of their personal knowledge and concentrate on other things about the band and the music, one or two apparently don't.
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Did you notice that Mark barely talks about this period of his career? If at all?
There are times in my life where I have behaved in a manner that is an embarrassment to me now and I am ashamed of how I behaved.
I barely talk about those times, if at all.
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We all have bad days and exhibit an unreasonable attitude sometimes.
When it becomes a pattern that is talked about by multiple people you have to just accept it's a personality issue.
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I guess the question is, has Mark or anyone else learned from it? I think yes, as I have not heard of other people say similar things since he went solo, although I am happy to be corrected.
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They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully. That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.
MK is my musical hero, but I've accepted for a long time that heroes can be dicks too. What's in it for you to defend him? Believe me, I'm super fascinated by what happened after the BIA tour. From the outside, it seems like all the success went to his head, at least for a little while, maybe combined with personal problems in his life. He might be a brilliant songwriter and inventive guitarist, but he said countless times that he isn't a 'proper' musician, so while I think you should treat everybody you work with with respect, hearing about his behavior towards giants like Manu is not something I could ever defend.
The topic is called "Grumpy Artists". I'm not defending Mark, and I find it silly that so many full-grown adults see me as a "stupid fanboy" when, in reality, I'm trying to appeal to common sense. I studied the lives of dozens of my favourite artists, not only Mark's, and I have experience working with creative people. Yes, not songwriters in the early 90s suffering from life problems and bullying their mates out of sheer misery, but I've seen some shit in my life.
I see all creative people living outside of this world, no matter how creative. When you're creating truly original stuff, you're quite literally thinking outside the box. And when people say, "Oh, Bob Dylan is such a dick, he did this and that." Well, this "dick" wrote songs that changed the world. This "dick" Mark Knopfler created some outstanding stuff, which is everything that matters to me. It matters more than a bad word he said to somebody 40 years ago.
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That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.
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I'm not defending Mark
That's literally what you said. And you act like you're the only outsider here working with creative people. I'm not denying that geniuses can be dicks, and that it sometimes is necessary to get results, but I see no reason to look away from that and question first-hand experiences from people who were involved.
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That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.
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I'm not defending Mark
That's literally what you said. And you act like you're the only outsider here working with creative people. I'm not denying that geniuses can be dicks, and that it sometimes is necessary to get results, but I see no reason to look away from that and question first-hand experiences from people who were involved.
But who's denying it??? Who's questioning anything??? The forum exploded with praise after all the posts and threads from real band members. It couldn't be the other way.
We are just discussing stuff, and I'm always trying to see the picture from Mark's point of view, in answer to which I'm often getting "you're just a fanboy" kind of vibes.
That's why I said I'm defending Mark, but on the other hand, I'm not defending Mark. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, why I should defend somebody I don't even know?
A little empathy goes a long way, and I'm just trying to stop putting labels like "bully", "silly", "grumpy" and "fanboy" on everything. Life is more complex than that, folks!
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But who's denying it??? Who's questioning anything???
You. Every time it comes up you work very hard to dismiss the facts. You said previously that you thought Manu wasn't good enough, which is why Mark had given him a bad time on the session. You WEREN'T there were you.
Any time I've said anything you've tried to paint me as over sensitive or exaggerating. You make all manner of excuses for Mark's bad behaviour - everyone has a bad day etc....
I think you should just move on. I usually only ever chime in when I'm asked a direct question, or in order to correct your misinformation and massaging of the facts.
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Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, why I should defend somebody I don't even know?
Great! Then I look forward to you not doing it from now on.
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But who's denying it??? Who's questioning anything???
You. Every time it comes up you work very hard to dismiss the facts. You said previously that you thought Manu wasn't good enough, which is why Mark had given him a bad time on the session. You WEREN'T there were you.
Any time I've said anything you've tried to paint me as over sensitive or exaggerating. You make all manner of excuses for Mark's bad behaviour - everyone has a bad day etc....
I think you should just move on. I usually only ever chime in when I'm asked a direct question, or in order to correct your misinformation and massaging of the facts.
I never said Manu wasn't good enough. You seem to dislike me on a genetic level and invent words I never intended to say, and no matter what I write, you'll say the opposite. If I'll say "white", you'll say "black". Or, like Ed said about the Mark vs. David relationship, if I say the Sun will rise tomorrow, you'll say no, it will not.
Let this be a reminder of how people can just dislike each other without a single reason. It's just life, folks, it's the way it works. The fact you always give me difficult time on this forum will never stop me liking your work and attitute towards truth, but seriously we need to agree to disagree. Can't we be friends?
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I never said Manu wasn't good enough.
You did actually, in a different thread several months ago. Someone mentioned that Manu didn't enjoy his OES experience and that he didn't like working with mark. You chimed in that Mark was very demanding a perfectionist and that Manu probably couldn't play to that level.
I don't 'dislike' people on forums. However, in the threads I post in, you have repeatedly contradicted me, even though you were never witness to my experiences. You repeatedly back up Mark as the good guy. the genius, no matter what anyone else posts.
I don't even dislike you for that. It's just tiring (not to mention annoying for other forum members) to have to keep correcting your falsehoods and hero worship that holds no bounds.
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I think it's pretty obvious from several first-hand sources (including the great Chris Whitten) that MK was quite an asshole in early 90s, and it's pretty obvious from at least as many sources that MK is a pretty nice guy from 1995 onwards, with the possible exception of anything related to ex members cover bands (remember the horrible, mean spirited song Terminal Of Tribute To) and the extremely weird RnR Hall of Fame debacle. So my deduction and conclusion is that MK has been pretty much a nice chap and in peace with himself for 30 years but obviously still hates Alan Clark.
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We should be all face to face to discuss.
I find forum format not that good for passionnate people to share opposite opinions.
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I think it's pretty obvious from several first-hand sources (including the great Chris Whitten) that MK was quite an asshole in early 90s, and it's pretty obvious from at least as many sources that MK is a pretty nice guy from 1995 onwards, with the possible exception of anything related to ex members cover bands (remember the horrible, mean spirited song Terminal Of Tribute To) and the extremely weird RnR Hall of Fame debacle. So my deduction and conclusion is that MK has been pretty much a nice chap and in peace with himself for 30 years but obviously still hates Alan Clark.
TOTT is quite nice musically, but so harsh lyrically, yes.
I think Alan's behaviour, like his horrible sentence "Mark was not such an important part of DS after all" led to it, but this is really too bad. Alan is a very talented keyboard player, probably the best Mark ever had. Jim is a master of piano, true, but something of the raw DS energy is still missing.
Mark is like Dr Knopfler and M. Mark to me.
When he is happy and gets what he wants, he can be quite relax. He respected a lot Pick and Alan's talent. He let John, Hal, Jack have the most ridiculous stage attire and dancing attitude. He never tried to replace John, although there were certainly more competent bassists around, just because John was so loyal.
On the other hand, when his is grumpy and doesn't get what he wants, he can be a ass. He didn't give space to his own brother. He didn't like it when Pick had his own magazine cover. He let Jack and Terry down when he didn't need them anymore. And there is of course this whole OES tour grumpy behaviour that has been discussed at length here...
I guess MK is simply human, with a light side and a dark side. But there is still good in him! 😊
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I guess MK is simply human
Outside of the music business there are ethics and laws that employers HAVE to abide by.
Ask yourself why society has moved in that direction.
I've been in music full time for over 45 years and have experienced many, many different work scenarios and colleagues.
When you say 'MK is simply human', well remember that he was already a multi-millionaire, walking out to a huge standing ovation every show, backed by the best musicians he could find, playing to the best of their abilities to make the show the best it could be. The whole thing was his idea - the OES album, the very long tour to promote it.
At some point you have to look at yourself and say, I shouldn't take out my depression and anger on the people around me. Maybe that doesn't happen 365 days of the year, I understand, but it should be the odd bad day at most.
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Chris, where I fully agree with you is this:
It can be human and forgivable to be grumpy and not up to basic courtesy standards, when you are unhappy in your life.
But it is not right not to try to fix it afterwards, once you recover from your struggles.
We all know that MK re-energized himself between 1993 and 1996. He rested and met his new wife. By 1996 he was happy again.
I guess what he should have done at this moment is pick up his phone, invite you for a nice dinner home, and tell you : "Look, Chris, I confess that 4 years ago I have been an ass. It was nothing personal, just me being unhappy. I'm so sorry for this, and let me tell you that you've have been awesome to put up with me in such a professional way".
It sounds simple... But sadly, some people are just not good at looking back and fixing things. I guess he is just one of them, unfortunately.
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TOTT is quite nice musically, but so harsh lyrically, yes.
I think Alan's behaviour, like his horrible sentence "Mark was not such an important part of DS after all" led to it, but this is really too bad. Alan is a very talented keyboard player, probably the best Mark ever had. Jim is a master of piano, true, but something of the raw DS energy is still missing.
I always understood that sentence as a joke in the context that they were playing live DS songs without MK, but not to take it seriously as Alan obviously know that DS was MK songs and guitar and the idea on arrangements came from him althought Alan was the one transforming that arrangements from MK mind to real music.
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Chris, where I fully agree with you is this:
It can be human and forgivable to be grumpy and not up to basic courtesy standards, when you are unhappy in your life.
But it is not right not to try to fix it afterwards, once you recover from your struggles.
Whatever happened afterwards is another thing, I don't really care. What I think isn't right is to make a whole bunch of other people unhappy for almost a whole world tour. I don''t need an apology four years later, or even now. I just need people to have more empathy in the moment.
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Yeah, I can see your point, Chris.
It is too bad that MK has the reputation of being humble, yet did not always live up to this reputation...
Cheers
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@Chris:
Just a thought or two.
What about John Illsley. Where was he in the whole OES tour thing. I know you wrote earlier something of him being in a smaller group with Mark and Guy when it came to socialising, if I remember correctly.
But did John ever say "Thank you" ? I mean he was after all a great and important part of DS.
Also, what if...... If Mark would ever one day reach out to you, would you be intrigued enough to participate in a MK project ? (or would you just leave it as things were)
Thanks for the ongoing answers here.
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He let John, Hal, Jack have the most ridiculous stage attire and dancing attitude.
Eh, their dress and stage movement was pretty conservative for the 80s!
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He let John, Hal, Jack have the most ridiculous stage attire and dancing attitude.
Eh, their dress and stage movement was pretty conservative for the 80s!
Many words come to my mind to describe Jack's half-naked attire on stage, but "conservative" is not one of them 🤣
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Anyway, Mark himself looked like a tennisman back in the day, and for his last tour he stemmed to be in pyjamas, and nobody cared. That's the magic of music 😂
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Artists who behave difficult, not exactly breaking news. And Mark for sure had taken things up several notches on the difficult scale. I didn't notice it when reading it back in 92, but I recently read an interview Mark did with Guitar Player at the time, and it struck me how full of himself he sounded. Almost cocky. In the Vox interview too from that time, he comes across as pretty harsh and insensitive. Very unlike my perception of him from interviews before and after the OES era. So something was clearly up. In addition to Mark's supposedly inflated ego, his failing relationship and having second thoughts about the OES tour, it's also possible he went through a good ol' mid-life crisis. And/or male menopause; yes, it's a thing, guys. Depending on how or how hard it strikes, you can become a seriously moody bitch. I'm 48, so guess how I know. Do I defend Mark's actions? No. Was I there? No. Do I know Mark privately? No! And to my knowledge, neither did/does Chris. Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
@peterromer - Which MK project? Nursing Home Rhymes? ;D
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Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
The central issue about this is very clear and well justified to me, it's not that it doesn't matter anymore 30 years later, but Chris can't come across people driven by guesswork "belching" parallel narratives, to the point of pitting everyone against one, as if all the people who had an unpleasant experience with MK, it was that person's fault, usually because they were incompetent and not up to what MK ("The supreme, omnipotent and immaculate god") would like... This is ridiculous and childish, it's worse than revisionism, because it's totally driven by blind fanaticism, a barren ground for self-criticism. If I were Chris, when I came across this kind of thing, I would express myself the same way, Ed did the same and with good reason, we are privileged to have this information first-hand from people who were part of the band's history, who were there helping to build the trajectory of the band we love the most, I am grateful and respectful to them for that. I dispense with the delusions of contradictory fanatics, the insistent ones are unbearable, they cannot be taken seriously.
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Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
The central issue about this is very clear and well justified to me, it's not that it doesn't matter anymore 30 years later, but Chris can't come across people driven by guesswork "belching" parallel narratives, to the point of pitting everyone against one, as if all the people who had an unpleasant experience with MK, it was that person's fault, usually because they were incompetent and not up to what MK ("The supreme, omnipotent and immaculate god") would like... This is ridiculous and childish, it's worse than revisionism, because it's totally driven by blind fanaticism, a barren ground for self-criticism. If I were Chris, when I came across this kind of thing, I would express myself the same way, Ed did the same and with good reason, we are privileged to have this information first-hand from people who were part of the band's history, who were there helping to build the trajectory of the band we love the most, I am grateful and respectful to them for that. I dispense with the delusions of contradictory fanatics, the insistent ones are unbearable, they cannot be taken seriously.
Are these contradictory fanatics in the room with us right now? :lol
Even as somebody from the "opposition" camp who usually causes fights here, I find it extremely disrespectful to call anybody a "fanatic". In my 20 years on this forum or whatever (I don't know the EXACT date, please don't kill me for a piece of vague information), I almost never witnessed a truly mad, insane fanatic and frankly never witnessed anything that could be called a blind admiration. I can't say never because the world is not perfect, and in rare cases things do go south.
What I do witness often is the lack of respect, empathy, and most importantly—sense of humour. Ed Bicknell, bless him, instead of making me cry out of disillusionment made me cry of laughter several times during his indirect visits and even when he can't agree with you and he shuts your butt down, he does it with dignity and respect. And, most importantly, with fun and ability to laugh at himself. I wish everybody could argue with me this way on a forum read by a few dozen music geeks.
Nothing funny in calling somebody a fanatic or saying he can't be taken seriously, when you don't even know a person at all. Talking about guesswork. Sorry folks, but my skin isn't too thin either and I know my worth, and I know many smart people I respect and who respect my opinion in return, the fact that somebody or an accomplished musician called me a fanatic won't make me cut my wrists.
The so-called "truth" means nothing if it's delivered in a manner so serious, the recipient of such truth would be rather working in a graveyard digging graves, than spend any amount of time with his opponent. I know I'd be happy to share a drink with Ed or Dusty Springfield, but I'm not so sure about all the visitors of this forum.
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Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
The central issue about this is very clear and well justified to me, it's not that it doesn't matter anymore 30 years later, but Chris can't come across people driven by guesswork "belching" parallel narratives, to the point of pitting everyone against one, as if all the people who had an unpleasant experience with MK, it was that person's fault, usually because they were incompetent and not up to what MK ("The supreme, omnipotent and immaculate god") would like... This is ridiculous and childish, it's worse than revisionism, because it's totally driven by blind fanaticism, a barren ground for self-criticism. If I were Chris, when I came across this kind of thing, I would express myself the same way, Ed did the same and with good reason, we are privileged to have this information first-hand from people who were part of the band's history, who were there helping to build the trajectory of the band we love the most, I am grateful and respectful to them for that. I dispense with the delusions of contradictory fanatics, the insistent ones are unbearable, they cannot be taken seriously.
Are these contradictory fanatics in the room with us right now? :lol
Even as somebody from the "opposition" camp who usually causes fights here, I find it extremely disrespectful to call anybody a "fanatic". In my 20 years on this forum or whatever (I don't know the EXACT date, please don't kill me for a piece of vague information), I almost never witnessed a truly mad, insane fanatic and frankly never witnessed anything that could be called a blind admiration. I can't say never because the world is not perfect, and in rare cases things do go south.
What I do witness often is the lack of respect, empathy, and most importantly—sense of humour. Ed Bicknell, bless him, instead of making me cry out of disillusionment made me cry of laughter several times during his indirect visits and even when he can't agree with you and he shuts your butt down, he does it with dignity and respect. And, most importantly, with fun and ability to laugh at himself. I wish everybody could argue with me this way on a forum read by a few dozen music geeks.
Nothing funny in calling somebody a fanatic or saying he can't be taken seriously, when you don't even know a person at all. Talking about guesswork. Sorry folks, but my skin isn't too thin either and I know my worth, and I know many smart people I respect and who respect my opinion in return, the fact that somebody or an accomplished musician called me a fanatic won't make me cut my wrists.
The so-called "truth" means nothing if it's delivered in a manner so serious, the recipient of such truth would be rather working in a graveyard digging graves, than spend any amount of time with his opponent. I know I'd be happy to share a drink with Ed or Dusty Springfield, but I'm not so sure about all the visitors of this forum.
Being direct and objective
We are certainly known to each other through the posts here on the forum, (the vast majority) approaches and points of view around various aspects related to MK's work, of course some know each other personally, or are known for another activity related to MK's music on another channel, you are an example, your channel on YouTube, wonderful, by the way, I've been following it since you created it. However, it is based on what is discussed here that we can have some image about anyone here, and based on that, we have an idea of the fan profile that circulates here. I have been told that I am a minimalist observer about Dire Straits, a nerdy fan, a detail-oriented, a purist... this may sound boring or pleasant to anyone, very normal, in the end, I am just another person who loves Dire Straits' work and MK's solo career, I share some of my discoveries, my research and points of view here and on other social networks, as do so many others... But, let's face it, I have seen you clash with Ed Bicknell here, and be insistent, stubborn with both Ed and Chris, there was an occasion when I thought I was having a nightmare, reading something you wrote, unbelievably contesting something that Ed (living history of 77-2000-DS-MK) clarified in the legendary question thread, just as a good example. You always and always put MK as an incarnation of God on Earth. Everyone who was disappointed with MK must have been wrong in some way... In short, this is how you present your arguments. I always found it surreal. I apologize for my weakness, but isn't that being a fanatic? Maybe you don't realize it... You create every condition to be seen that way. I'm sorry. You are talented in taking an x-ray of a song written by MK and transcribing it. This is a significant contribution that I greatly appreciate and am grateful for. However, here on the forum, in my opinion (and I notice that I am no exception), you have solidified this image that you sometimes complain about being labeled a fanboy. I will not react to this the way Ed Bicknell reacts. Everyone has their own humor and personality. I may not be pleasant or good-natured, but I am frank, not disrespectful, and I am open to constructive criticism. I am an eternal learner. Perhaps my academic background, as a History teacher, must count a lot for me to have this perspective, and to value a historical source like people who were there, I know the value of this, the weight of the point of view of a person like Ed or Chris is of inestimable historical value compared to what any of us who are fans have to say.
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Artists who behave difficult, not exactly breaking news. And Mark for sure had taken things up several notches on the difficult scale. I didn't notice it when reading it back in 92, but I recently read an interview Mark did with Guitar Player at the time, and it struck me how full of himself he sounded. Almost cocky. In the Vox interview too from that time, he comes across as pretty harsh and insensitive. Very unlike my perception of him from interviews before and after the OES era. So something was clearly up. In addition to Mark's supposedly inflated ego, his failing relationship and having second thoughts about the OES tour, it's also possible he went through a good ol' mid-life crisis. And/or male menopause; yes, it's a thing, guys. Depending on how or how hard it strikes, you can become a seriously moody bitch. I'm 48, so guess how I know. Do I defend Mark's actions? No. Was I there? No. Do I know Mark privately? No! And to my knowledge, neither did/does Chris. Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
@peterromer - Which MK project? Nursing Home Rhymes? ;D
Nah ;) Do you think we have heard the last from Mr. Knopfler. I do not think so. Not regarding recordings at least.
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Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
No it doesn't. Except a lot of these peopler are doing podcasts - Pick, Manu....
I only ever comment when AMIT forum members watch the podcasts and start making stuff up or guessing the facts to excuse Mark.
If no one here commented on what happened 30 years ago, then I wouldn't either.
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Everyone who was disappointed with MK must have been wrong in some way...
^^ This ^^
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Does any of this matter 30 plus years later? N. O.
No it doesn't. Except a lot of these peopler are doing podcasts - Pick, Manu....
I only ever comment when AMIT forum members watch the podcasts and start making stuff up or guessing the facts to excuse Mark.
If no one here commented on what happened 30 years ago, then I wouldn't either.
Chris, anything from the people that has been around is priceless. Thanks for every bit you write here.
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Also, it doesn't need to be about personalities.
All I ask is that people try and stick to the truth. If Manu says he didn't enjoy working with Mark, that's just a fact, for whatever reason.
Just let it go. It's when people start guessing things that Manu wasn't good enough, or is a bad tempered musician himself.
And finally, when the people who were there, who have direct experience post, don't argue the facts with them.
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What about John Illsley. Where was he in the whole OES tour thing.
John was just happy to be along for the ride. I didn't have much to do with John. Actually Guy, Alan and Danny were tight. Mark and John hung out together. I couldn't afford to eat at their restaurant choices and I had nothing in common to chat with them (various expensive cars, various multiple homes etc).
If Mark would ever one day reach out to you, would you be intrigued enough to participate in a MK project ?
Probably not. It's NEVER going to happen anyway.
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Even as somebody from the "opposition" camp who usually causes fights here
There is no camp, opposition or not. It's not mortal combat. It's a place to chat about a songwriter and his band.
I put value on the facts. Also, if it's another forum about a band I really like, hearing from the people who were there....in the band...or in the room.
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Again, for the 80s, any DS stage wear was definitely conservative :)
(https://apolarisview.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/prince81-controversy-live.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/thequeerreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/fgth.jpeg?w=880&ssl=1)
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If Mark would ever one day reach out to you, would you be intrigued enough to participate in a MK project ?
Probably not. It's NEVER going to happen anyway.
As far as we heard, looks like MK is very much nicer nowadays and probably would be kind of healer. Hal Lindes had reconneted with MK, John and Guy after his bad departure from the band and seems they had a nice time.
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I’ve been part of the DS/MK online community since the early interwebs and this might be the best time to be onboard :D anyway, it’s clear that MK was in rough shape ’92 if you just check a couple interviews from that period. I think it was pretty much common knowledge back then and up to 00s that he can be at times a difficult person to deal with.
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I’ve been part of the DS/MK online community since the early interwebs and this might be the best time to be onboard :D anyway, it’s clear that MK was in rough shape ’92 if you just check a couple interviews from that period. I think it was pretty much common knowledge back then and up to 00s that he can be at times a difficult person to deal with.
I understand and agree with this, but also agree with Chris Whitten and other forumers, it doesn't matter if you are experiencing difficult times in your life for whatever the reasons, if you are nearly two years on tour with the same people, that people becomes family for that time so at least have a correct relationship should be standard.
However, is easy to say this from the outside, is difficult to put yourself in MK's shoes at that time, and even harder to put in the musician and tecnicians shoes. I remember Joop de Korte telling almost everyone was desperately looking forward to the end of the tour.
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I understand and agree with this, but also agree with Chris Whitten and other forumers, it doesn't matter if you are experiencing difficult times in your life for whatever the reasons, if you are nearly two years on tour with the same people, that people becomes family for that time so at least have a correct relationship should be standard.
However, is easy to say this from the outside, is difficult to put yourself in MK's shoes at that time, and even harder to put in the musician and tecnicians shoes. I remember Joop de Korte telling almost everyone was desperately looking forward to the end of the tour.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way trying to defend MK. Just pointing out it’s been in the public domain that he’s an arse for a loooong time. And it surprises that some are trying to view it any other way. The music is great, love the OES record and tour, my favourite. What’s behind the scenes is another matter and a shame it ended the way it did. Anyway I think in the end MK is a rather introvert person and any difficult emotions and feelings he’ll push into songs rather than bring it up with face to face with someone. The end result we get to enjoy but it takes some casualties on the way.
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Everyone who was disappointed with MK must have been wrong in some way...
^^ This ^^
I am sorry, but I must say ^^this^^ is where both of you are wrong. And the surrealism of the situation is such, that from short little messages on a fan forum you create an entire picture of a person and his psychological portrait, provide your diagnosis and seal it off with bold labels like "You always and always put MK as an incarnation of God on Earth" or "silly", or whatever it may be. It's not about WHAT you say, people, it's about HOW you say it. And it's obvious I'm not a fan of how some of you put your words together and attack me personally.
Yeah, the same guy who destroyed the entire topic of the teenage cancer trust project, often won't agree with Guy's view on production, and constantly being annoyed by questionable marketing strategies of Mark like a million bonus tracks and the absence of live albums, who's in fight with everybody on this forum, and who can't care less about the entire MK—the Guitar God agenda, who's not a fan of John's DS book, and a million other things, sure I'm a contender #1 for being a stupid fanboy. Do you really believe in this shit?
I can admit that I'm often over the top in my opinions and push discussion to its limits, but the majority of people just read my message and get exactly what I was trying to say, others read it seemingly with their ass, treat it as a red flag and attack me as if I've killed their pet dog or something (how about language like this? Not pleasant, huh? Two can play that game, hahaha!). TOO MUCH hate is going from some of you, and you know who you are. You can't get away from it by just saying you're defending "the truth". I'm defending myself.
Even in this topic, a lot of people like Jules and other forum members earlier said pretty much the same thing I've said, just in shorter and better ways. I just prefer to push everything to its limits, and try to determine exactly how somebody like MK would feel, why he did something like he did, why he'd make choices that he made, and that's it. I'm not dismissing the facts, I'm not saying Chris is telling lies, I'm not saying I was in the room with Mark and Manu when they discussed the drums. Chill out, guys, it's a discussion forum.
My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum, and I find it very entertaining to witness in real time the same processes that could lead to any *put your musician here* behaving like assholes in the first place. Proving that people are always people, and people upset people. And if the length of my messages upsets you, you know where to go. Enough negativity in this world, guys, so I beg you, please stop this war.
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My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum
Whatever dude. All I can say is you think it's attacking, you think you are being victimised, you think people who disagree with you are 'assholes'.
I'm just trying to keep things 'real' on the forum.
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>My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum, and I find it very entertaining to witness in real time the same processes that could lead to any *put your musician here* behaving like assholes in the first place. Proving that people are always people, and people upset people. And if the length of my messages upsets you, you know where to go. Enough negativity in this world, guys, so I beg you, please stop this war.
Unfortunately you are the one who is prolonging the agony of this argument by making the same point with increasing hostility.
If you don't think MK was at fault for the issues on the OES tour then nothing,other than MK saying so himself,is going to change your mind.Fair enough you are entitled to that point of view but you don't help yourself by ignoring what everyone else is saying/has said particularly as many of those actually witnessed the issues.
I have no interest in reading how MK behaved many decades ago and it seems to also upset you so PLEASE stop prolonging these seemingly endless threads on the issue.
You make lots of lovely contributions on many other topics so for the sanity of the forum please move back to those.
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>My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum, and I find it very entertaining to witness in real time the same processes that could lead to any *put your musician here* behaving like assholes in the first place. Proving that people are always people, and people upset people. And if the length of my messages upsets you, you know where to go. Enough negativity in this world, guys, so I beg you, please stop this war.
Unfortunately you are the one who is prolonging the agony of this argument by making the same point with increasing hostility.
If you don't think MK was at fault for the issues on the OES tour then nothing,other than MK saying so himself,is going to change your mind.Fair enough you are entitled to that point of view but you don't help yourself by ignoring what everyone else is saying/has said particularly as many of those actually witnessed the issues.
I have no interest in reading how MK behaved many decades ago and it seems to also upset you so PLEASE stop prolonging these seemingly endless threads on the issue.
You make lots of lovely contributions on many other topics so for the sanity of the forum please move back to those.
Please, don't tell me what to do, alright? I'm done with some people on this forum, so I'm sorry for being so rude. If you can't stop something politely, if people don't understand, and I tried to be super nice about it, then they are getting what they asked for. I'm not the one who can stand constant attacks and distortion of my words, and if somebody calls me names, I'm not going to turn the other cheek.
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My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum
Whatever dude. All I can say is you think it's attacking, you think you are being victimised, you think people who disagree with you are 'assholes'.
I'm just trying to keep things 'real' on the forum.
The act of disagreement alone is not enough to call somebody an a-hole. But when people put words in my mouth I never intended to say, and most importantly, say it with 100% confidence, and I'm sitting here scratching my head, I just don't get it. Probably in the same way you are getting annoyed by "guesswork" on this forum. Funny, innit?
Man, I hate text messages because you never understand the intention, emotions and meaning of words, and it's too easy to misinterpret words, as long as you start to actually discuss things and not sing the praises. Now everybody thinks I hate everyone and I think everybody's an a-hole. People, I'm the kindest and politest person you can think of, I can't hurt a fly.
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Hello,
Everyone, I am not a musician, singer or guitarist, just a fan of DS & MK for decades.
From everything I have read and heard, Mark is certainly not an easy person to work with.
His brother is the first example and many followed in the 80s.
Only John followed him from the beginning to the end of DS.
I do not think and I do not have the pretension, nor the knowledge to affirm that this or that musician is better than another. I love what DK does solo.
I simply think that MK, despite his bad temper, always knew where he wanted to go with or without DS, with or without this or that musician, even if he could never anticipate success.
I can't imagine questioning the talent of Jeff (who I had the chance to see and listen to with Toto) or Manu, simply like with his brother, he always had a very precise idea of what he wanted to hear.
When he started the OES tour, to the great surprise of John and Ed, he was leading one of the biggest bands in the world and that doesn't excuse his behavior or his mood swings.
He brought DS what he wanted to the end, maybe too far.
He never talks about OES as a success, simply an evolution of his music on the scale of one of the biggest bands in the world, which became too much to manage, but he wanted it, and I won't comment on his private life at that time like that of other members.
It may not have worked out as he wanted, but the fact remains that this tour has gathered many fans, it is always a pleasure for me to listen to live performances and I am always impressed by Chris Whitten.
And the other drummers, whom he never chose at random.
Mark has always wanted to evolve his music with or without DS.
Many artists have crossed his path with varying degrees of pleasure.
His solo career shows a change in the stability of the musicians, even if the drummers who have changed the most.
I don't think Danny holds a grudge, he participated in the last tour on percussion, even if it must never be easy not to be renewed.
Times change, music remains, one thing is certain, having played alongside Mark was never a coincidence.
Every musician can be proud of having participated in this wonderful adventure.
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The act of disagreement alone is not enough to call somebody an a-hole. But when people put words in my mouth I never intended to say, and most importantly, say it with 100% confidence, and I'm sitting here scratching my head, I just don't get it.
As others have said.....
A lot of this stuff has been discussed at length for years. The people who were in the room confirm just about all of it.
We can all move on, except when one or two people try to rewrite the truth.
As I said, I didn't make a video with Manu for Youtube. On from that, I didn't post the video on this forum. I didn't even comment, until all the excuses started coming in.
You say you are misunderstood, or at least say things you 'don't mean' to say.
You posted a lengthy comment asking why Manu was angry when Mark asked him to play 'Heavy Fuel'.
From everything we know, Manu had a very tough day playing on 'Planet Of New Orleans' and was ready to go home, then Mark asked him to play 'Heavy Fuel'. It is a super easy song to play, although it's not in Manu's usual style.
When he listened back to Jeff's (no doubt fantastic) version, he asked Mark why he wasn't satisfied with it.
That IS standard practice for studio musicians. 1) You probably know it's tough to do anything better and 2) you need to know why Mark isn't happy with the original drumming, so you can have an insight into what needs to be done better.
None of this needed to be argued, and yet you painted a very different picture of the day. A day you weren't in the studio with Mark and Manu.
Freelance musicians almost NEVER divulge their personal feelings about an artist. It just labels you as difficult and someone who can't be trusted to keep their opinions to themselves. So it's notable that Katche was quite upfront in his opinion....first expressed in a magazine interview many years ago.
So why do you keep arguing?
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Freelance musicians almost NEVER divulge their personal feelings about an artist. It just labels you as difficult and someone who can't be trusted to keep their opinions to themselves.
Hi Chris,
There is a popular word for that "omerta" and a legal expression "confidential clause".
And this take the public away from the truth.
Manu has kept his mouth closed for years but at some point he had spilled the bean when writing his memoires.
May I suggest that he did it once he was in a positon to be able to do it without the fear to be blacklisted?
For my personal part, and I am probably not alone, I try to understand who Mark is relying on the available facts.
And I want a point clear : finding explanation, event inaccurate explanation is not for my part necesseraly defending someone but really a better "know how" and "know why".
This is obviouly a touchy matter to discuss that with you as are still very affected by this part in your life.
I have believed for years that Mark bas attitude was relied with his divorce.
Again this was an explanation for me not an excuse.
According to you I understand that Mark bad attitude was deeper than this, and that was other fact that put Mark like this.
Although both facts are right, putting a causality link between them was wrong. So would I said lesson learned for my part.
I am correct?
And this why it is important for me to have people like you or Ed to put some thing in order.
But even Ed had to leave the curtain on many subjects.
So that leaves me with some question that nobody won't be able to answer.
In french when saying "that is human" is not an excuse but only means what human can be: very nice at some time are really shit at others.
Some people will stand as they are all their life, other will evolve.
The thing that I can't explain and that is amazing me is how the 96'r remained mostly unchanged until the very last gig: only the drummer left but apart that, the same musos from 1996 and the folkies once included remained till the end.
I understand that you are not into forgiving mood about the man but how Mark personality, psychology, has changed over the years to keep that team together working extensively for him is question of interest for me.
Another example I recently read that Mark expressed some regret about writing MFN lyric.
Does he has learned from the OES times or not ?
And this where I enter into guessing again so I have to stay on that question.
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Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.
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Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.
Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.
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Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.
Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.
:thumbsup
Also Danny returned on percussion for the final tour.
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Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.
Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.
The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
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Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.
Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.
The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
Apart from 2005 to 2010, Jim Cox was back in the band from 2013 to the last tour in 2019.
John McC and Mike McG were also part of the band - John McC from 2008 and Mike McG from 2010, both to the end.
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The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
Then explain me why Jim is featured on both US recorded albums The Ragpicker's Dream and Shangri-La plus the multi years sessions All the Roadrunning.
And strangely he whipped from the recording gang only once Mark started using his own London based recording studio.
If I am correct Jim had ear problems that prevented him to travel by plane making him almost impossible to be part of Mark touring band.
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The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
Then explain me why Jim is featured on both US recorded albums The Ragpicker's Dream and Shangri-La plus the multi years sessions All the Roadrunning.
And strangely he whipped from the recording gang only once Mark started using his own London based recording studio.
If I am correct Jim had ear problems that prevented him to travel by plane making him almost impossible to be part of Mark touring band.
Well, then why is Matt credited on 2010's Get Lucky? And Jim is not credited on 2007's Kill to Get Crimson. Studio and touring seem to be two independent things. All in all Matt was kicked out after 5 long years of touring. Ok, Jim is an outstanding player, but a bit more convoluted to my taste. Matt was fine to be. So was Danny whom I prefer to Ianto. Mark has strange and abrupt decisions sometimes...
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The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
Then explain me why Jim is featured on both US recorded albums The Ragpicker's Dream and Shangri-La plus the multi years sessions All the Roadrunning.
And strangely he whipped from the recording gang only once Mark started using his own London based recording studio.
If I am correct Jim had ear problems that prevented him to travel by plane making him almost impossible to be part of Mark touring band.
Well, then why is Matt credited on 2010's Get Lucky? And Jim is not credited on 2007's Kill to Get Crimson. Studio and touring seem to be two independent things.
Answer a question by another question ?
You should enter into politic :P
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The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
Then explain me why Jim is featured on both US recorded albums The Ragpicker's Dream and Shangri-La plus the multi years sessions All the Roadrunning.
And strangely he whipped from the recording gang only once Mark started using his own London based recording studio.
If I am correct Jim had ear problems that prevented him to travel by plane making him almost impossible to be part of Mark touring band.
Well, then why is Matt credited on 2010's Get Lucky? And Jim is not credited on 2007's Kill to Get Crimson. Studio and touring seem to be two independent things.
Answer a question by another question ?
You should enter into politic :P
Well, I'm already in politics 😂
But, in all honesty, I didn't intend to reply your question with another question. Since you were saying that Jim played on 2002, 2004 and 2006 albums and drew the conclusion that Mark must have favored Jim over Matt, and was only waiting for Jim's ear problem to be fixed to call him back, I merely remarked that Mark favored Jim for the 2010 album, so that studio choices and touring choices seemed unrelated. Besides, Matt toured with Mark for 5 years, that's pretty long for a replacement! So he must have been fired for other reasons, which I have no clue about.
Btw, this used to be also your reasoning. I remember once you and I were talking IRL, and you told me, regarding Matt: "I wonder why he fired this one" 😉
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The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!
Then explain me why Jim is featured on both US recorded albums The Ragpicker's Dream and Shangri-La plus the multi years sessions All the Roadrunning.
And strangely he whipped from the recording gang only once Mark started using his own London based recording studio.
If I am correct Jim had ear problems that prevented him to travel by plane making him almost impossible to be part of Mark touring band.
Well, then why is Matt credited on 2010's Get Lucky? And Jim is not credited on 2007's Kill to Get Crimson. Studio and touring seem to be two independent things.
Answer a question by another question ?
You should enter into politic :P
Well, I'm already in politics 😂
But, in all honesty, I didn't intend to reply your question with another question. Since you were saying that Jim played on 2002, 2004 and 2006 albums and drew the conclusion that Mark must have favored Jim over Matt, and was only waiting for Jim's ear problem to be fixed to call him back, I merely remarked that Mark favored Jim for the 2010 album, so that studio choices and touring choices seemed unrelated. Besides, Matt toured with Mark for 5 years, that's pretty long for a replacement! So he must have been fired for other reasons, which I have no clue about.
Btw, this used to be also your reasoning. I remember once you and I were talking IRL, and you told me, regarding Matt: "I wonder why he fired this one" 😉
Matt toured for three tours - 2005, 2008 and 2010 not five. I don't believe that Matt was fired. He was working with Mary Chapin Carpenter at that time, so perhaps that is the reason he left.
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That's why I said 5 years, not 5 tours 😜
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That's why I said 5 years, not 5 tours 😜
Three tours wouldn't have taken five years! You actually said Matt was touring with Mark for five years.
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I mean calendar years. A good measure of continuous relationship.
And it's 4 tours, not 3. Matt is also on the 2006 short one. I really enjoy my Real live roadrunning DVD! 😊
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I mean calendar years. A good measure of continuous relationship.
And it's 4 tours, not 3. Matt is also on the 2006 short one. I really enjoy my Real live roadrunning DVD! 😊
I also enjoy the RLRR DVD, but Jim is also there in the pre-concert part of the DVD with Mark and they both look pretty friendly together. ;)
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Matt wasn’t fired, he was always only there because Jim couldn’t travel, Guy covered all this stuff in his diaries at the time.
Danny is also easy to explain, rightly or wrongly he wasn’t considered to be a “real” drummer like Ian.
Chad is the only one where there may be some controversy, even then Chad played it down in that podcast a few years back.
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Since you were saying that Jim played on 2002, 2004 and 2006 albums and drew the conclusion that Mark must have favored Jim over Matt, and was only waiting for Jim's ear problem to be fixed to call him back, I merely remarked that Mark favored Jim for the 2010 album, so that studio choices and touring choices seemed unrelated.
Err Jim isn't playing on the Get Lucky album but Matt is .
None of the UK recorded album did feature Jim during his break from the 96'rs.
Besides, Matt toured with Mark for 5 years, that's pretty long for a replacement! So he must have been fired for other reasons, which I have no clue about.
So in my opinion Jim was the n°1 on Mark's list and used Matt as long as Jim was unable.
But that is opinion I was not there whith Mark switched back.
And I ignore if Matt was available in 2011.
I remember once you and I were talking IRL, and you told me, regarding Matt: "I wonder why he fired this one" 😉
I don't remember I expressed that opinion with that exact sentence .
But is it correct that I did say I prefered Matt over Jim.
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Argh sorry I indeed meant Matt, not Jim, for the 2010 Get Lucky album.
Anyway, whatever the reason for Matt leaving the band may be, my point is, there was also some turnover during the solo years. Nothing as dramatic as David leaving DS in 1980, but I think Chad is comparable to Pick. Both great drumers who seemed to have been fed up at some point... And Danny is comparable to Terry: Both powerful Drumers, both great human beings, but somehow not fully up to Mark's expectations, but called back at some point (the BIA tout for Terry, the last 2019 tour for Danny).
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Matt wasn’t fired, he was always only there because Jim couldn’t travel, Guy covered all this stuff in his diaries at the time.
Danny is also easy to explain, rightly or wrongly he wasn’t considered to be a “real” drummer like Ian.
Chad is the only one where there may be some controversy, even then Chad played it down in that podcast a few years back.
I wonder who formulated that judgement about Danny. It's always been my "needle in the ass" issue with his touring band, the letting go of Danny to bring in Ian. I'm not in a position to judge Danny's technical abilities on the drums, but he matched Mark's sound like no other. He had the energy, his fills always complemented the song very well and he was just a nice guy to watch perform, always with a smile on his face. When Ian was brought in to replace Danny, Mark's shows lost a bit of soul.
Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now
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My understanding (and as ever I could be completely wrong), is that Danny was a percussionist to trade, one of the very best. Then in the late 90s/early 00s he worked to get to a high level on drums, to the extent that MK used him on the charity shows and then he admirably stepped in when Chad left at short notice.
As to the earlier comment about Chad being comparable to Pick, the big difference is that Chad left, seemingly at short notice, in the middle of the tour.
Chris would be able to educate us on the consequences of that, but again we don’t know the circumstances, for example if he had to leave to deal with some sort of family emergency then you would think there would be a degree of sympathy. From memory he was touring with Neil Young shortly after.
And he had already completed two tours with MK by this point so you would think he would know what to expect.
All very unusual.
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My understanding (and as ever I could be completely wrong), is that Danny was a percussionist to trade, one of the very best. Then in the late 90s/early 00s he worked to get to a high level on drums, to the extent that MK used him on the charity shows and then he admirably stepped in when Chad left at short notice.
As to the earlier comment about Chad being comparable to Pick, the big difference is that Chad left, seemingly at short notice, in the middle of the tour.
Chris would be able to educate us on the consequences of that, but again we don’t know the circumstances, for example if he had to leave to deal with some sort of family emergency then you would think there would be a degree of sympathy. From memory he was touring with Neil Young shortly after.
And he had already completed two tours with MK by this point so you would think he would know what to expect.
All very unusual.
I remember an article from a few years ago where Chad was very complimentary of Mark and he made it clear that the issue wasn’t with him. He didn’t say what the issue was specifically, but I got the impression that there was some sort of issue with someone or something outside of the band environment. I would assume Danny was contacted to advise that Chad was imminently leaving the band and that Chad hung on until Danny was parachuted in. But there must have been some prior warning so that Danny could perhaps listen to some recordings of the shows and get some level of understanding of how to play his drum parts. But it was certainly an unusual situation.
And I have to say I was hugely impressed with Danny. He really brought energy to the mix. I recall Danny chatting with fans on Facebook a while ago and he mentioned that he and Mark had actually discussed Ianto during the Get Lucky tour, so it wasn’t like he was cast aside out of the blue. And later he returned on percussion, so it all came full circle for him.
To be fair, I like all of the drummers Mark has worked with down the years. They all have their merits. I think, broadly, they all had the right style and tone at the right time.
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So why do you keep arguing?
Who's arguing? Who's rewriting the truth? It's getting old, but I have to ask these questions. I appreciate your input and understand what you've said, and I understood it and had no problems with it from day 1, but I'm still unconvinced about all the "deadly sins" I've committed and what "truth" I'm apparently rewriting. Boy, I'm more important than Trump.
You said it best, "From everything we know", because you know we don't know anything at all. What we've got? A couple of 2 min interviews? A couple of messages from DS' manager and OES tour drummer? And literally nothing from John's book? It's all great, but I think it's far from saying the case is closed and Chris Whitten's opinion is a definitive opinion on the matter.
2025 marks 20 years of me being a fan of MK&DS and I still have no idea what happened during OES time because people usually prefer not to wash dirty linen in public (speaking of whatever happened to Chad). And I probably don't want to know what happened. Even if Mark Knopfler himself registers on AMIT and comments on things, it will be Mark Knopfler's side of view.
What I'm saying is—everything is up for debate. And instead of telling your opponent to shut up, telling him to stop writing messages, forcing him to leave the forum or whatever, what about understanding where he's coming from? Why put labels on people and accuse people of rewriting history? Why telling people what to do? I'm just a curious guy who loves MK&DS, that's why we are ALL here.
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So why do you keep arguing?
A couple of messages from DS' manager and OES tour drummer? And literally nothing from John's book? It's all great, but I think it's far from saying the case is closed and Chris Whitten's opinion is a definitive opinion on the matter.
CHRIS WHITTEN WAS THERE. ED BICKNELL WAS THERE. THEY CAN SPEAK AUTHORITATIVELY ON MARK'S DEMEANOR AND ATTITUDE DURING THAT ERA.
You're saying if Mark himself registered on AMIT and said, " Sorry, I was a capital A Asshole on the OES tour"' you wouldn't believe it because that's "just his side"?
C'mon man. You're just trolling us now
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Even as somebody from the "opposition" camp who usually causes fights here
There is no camp, opposition or not. It's not mortal combat. It's a place to chat about a songwriter and his band.
I put value on the facts. Also, if it's another forum about a band I really like, hearing from the people who were there....in the band...or in the room.
I'm baffled as to how and why Chris Whitten is questioned / ridiculued with regards to any of his comments relating to DS, the OES tour and Mark Knopfler. There are a couple of posters who are delusional to say the very least. Please listen to what Chris says. Take it in and store it in your memory bank. You might not like it but that's how it (sadly) played out. Tough sh*t. In fact I bet Chris is probably slightly under-playing it all.
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What I'm saying is—everything is up for debate. And instead of telling your opponent to shut up, telling him to stop writing messages, forcing him to leave the forum
It says something about your point of view that you even make up stuff about your treatment. NO ONE has told you to 'shut up', or 'stop writing messages' or is trying to force you to 'leave the forum'.
I'm just saying no one enjoys these long arguments about 30 years ago. And I've asked you to 1) accept you weren't there, like some of us were and 2) not perpetuate the arguments with your guess work.
You can post all you want. Likely I never see 90% of your posts. I generally only look at topics that cover events I was present at.
FWIW, a few people have questioned some of the facts in John's book, and he's hardly going to write a book criticising the behaviour of his best mate and the guy who made him a multi-millionaire.
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My understanding (and as ever I could be completely wrong), is that Danny was a percussionist to trade, one of the very best. Then in the late 90s/early 00s he worked to get to a high level on drums, to the extent that MK used him on the charity shows and then he admirably stepped in when Chad left at short notice.
As to the earlier comment about Chad being comparable to Pick, the big difference is that Chad left, seemingly at short notice, in the middle of the tour.
Chris would be able to educate us on the consequences of that, but again we don’t know the circumstances, for example if he had to leave to deal with some sort of family emergency then you would think there would be a degree of sympathy. From memory he was touring with Neil Young shortly after.
And he had already completed two tours with MK by this point so you would think he would know what to expect.
All very unusual.
I remember an article from a few years ago where Chad was very complimentary of Mark and he made it clear that the issue wasn’t with him. He didn’t say what the issue was specifically, but I got the impression that there was some sort of issue with someone or something outside of the band environment. I would assume Danny was contacted to advise that Chad was imminently leaving the band and that Chad hung on until Danny was parachuted in. But there must have been some prior warning so that Danny could perhaps listen to some recordings of the shows and get some level of understanding of how to play his drum parts. But it was certainly an unusual situation.
And I have to say I was hugely impressed with Danny. He really brought energy to the mix. I recall Danny chatting with fans on Facebook a while ago and he mentioned that he and Mark had actually discussed Ianto during the Get Lucky tour, so it wasn’t like he was cast aside out of the blue. And later he returned on percussion, so it all came full circle for him.
To be fair, I like all of the drummers Mark has worked with down the years. They all have their merits. I think, broadly, they all had the right style and tone at the right time.
Opposite to the tours before, the 2005 tour was a "world tour" with gigs in Mumbai, South Africa, Australia and Russia. So the travelling would have been a much bigger aspect and somehow, and I can't remember when and why, I remember that homesickness was an issue. So maybe Chad had stuff at home in the US or was not able to cope with such a massive travel schedule. Neil Young was touring the US (only) at that time and maybe that was a reason.
LE
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Just found the interview. It was in Rolling Stone in 2021. Here’s an excerpt:
You left the 2005 tour during the tour. What happened there?
That was personal things that were going on in my life that needed pretty intense attention. It was family-related. It wasn’t music-related. There were some professional issues that were unfortunate, but none of them would I ever direct to Mark. Mark was great. I still love Mark. But I needed to take a break during that tour.
The handling of all that got really tricky for me and it came necessary for me to say goodbye at that point. In all fairness to everyone involved, I can’t go too deeply into all that, but that was my jumping-off point.
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CHRIS WHITTEN WAS THERE. ED BICKNELL WAS THERE. THEY CAN SPEAK AUTHORITATIVELY ON MARK'S DEMEANOR AND ATTITUDE DURING THAT ERA.
You're saying if Mark himself registered on AMIT and said, " Sorry, I was a capital A Asshole on the OES tour"' you wouldn't believe it because that's "just his side"?
C'mon man. You're just trolling us now
It says something about your point of view that you even make up stuff about your treatment. NO ONE has told you to 'shut up', or 'stop writing messages' or is trying to force you to 'leave the forum'.
I'm just saying no one enjoys these long arguments about 30 years ago. And I've asked you to 1) accept you weren't there, like some of us were and 2) not perpetuate the arguments with your guess work.
You can post all you want. Likely I never see 90% of your posts. I generally only look at topics that cover events I was present at.
FWIW, a few people have questioned some of the facts in John's book, and he's hardly going to write a book criticising the behaviour of his best mate and the guy who made him a multi-millionaire.
Again, I'm not saying Ed and Chris weren't there. YOU WERE THERE. I'm not saying I was there. I WASN'T THERE. I was a toddler back then. Ed and Chris were part of the DS history, and I'm nobody. Isn't it obvious, though? What I see is Chris is constantly looking to draw a line under something, as in—this is what has happened and ANY other view is wrong. It's not about guess work. And I can't say I'm a fan of the condescending nature of your answers to me, ALWAYS looking for sneaky little ways to bite me one way or another.
A simple question for you, Chris, how do you think you're going to establish "the truth" on a public forum with messages scrolling by fast, new people showing up all the time, and most of them never bothering with digging for old topics to find "the truth"? It's impossible. That's why I'm rooting for having a "discussion" which you're calling arguing and guess work. Early on I asked whether you want to have an honorary topic where you'd be the boss—you declined. So if you're a regular member here, what about... having a discussion? :hmm
TJ, we're "arguing" about completely different things and people still distort my words like crazy, my gosh. It's like a freaking Salvador Dalí painting. Why are you again re-telling me what I said and putting words in my mouth? I stated clearly enough that I hate when people get personal with me because they think I'm "arguing" when in reality they just can't agree with my point of view, fail to debate properly and get personal, accusing me of stuff and offending me, telling me "you this" and "you that". Who's trolling? Nobody!
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At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.
During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!
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At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.
During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!
But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉
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At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.
During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!
But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉
Nope. Fully erroneous.
I am currently speaking about the drum part and up to the very last public performance in 2015, the drum part on it was fine.
You should have recorded what I really said IRL and listen to it again before writing such false statements :P :-*
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I remember that it was said that Chad would be back for the RAH shows in 2005 and I remember that because I had tickets to that shows and that would be my first ever Rah shows. Danny was to replace Chad until the London shows but Guy said in his forum once that MK thought that Danny was doing it so great that they decided he keep playing the remaining of the tour.
I'm not sure if that's totally true as Chad himself said that while being at home dealing with his personal matters, playing with Neil Young appeared and later he joined Peter Frampton so maybe it was a mix of things.
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At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.
During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!
But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉
Nope. Fully erroneous.
I am currently speaking about the drum part and up to the very last public performance in 2015, the drum part on it was fine.
You should have recorded what I really said IRL and listen to it again before writing such false statements :P :-*
Well... To refresh your memory:
https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=180.msg15733#msg15733
In 2009, you wrote: "worst: 2005" 😉 I didn't make this up!
And IRL, more recently, you told me, almost verbatim: "2005 is the year where I really started to feel that something was wrong in the guitar playing. Balooney again was terrible compared to 2001.But the quality loss was slower for some songs. Sultans was already terrible in 2005, but TR was still quite ok".
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At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.
During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!
But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉
Nope. Fully erroneous.
I am currently speaking about the drum part and up to the very last public performance in 2015, the drum part on it was fine.
You should have recorded what I really said IRL and listen to it again before writing such false statements :P :-*
Well... To refresh your memory:
https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=180.msg15733#msg15733
In 2009, you wrote: "worst: 2005" 😉 I didn't make this up!
And IRL, more recently, you told me, almost verbatim: "2005 is the year where I really started to feel that something was wrong in the guitar playing. Balooney again was terrible compared to 2001.But the quality loss was slower for some songs. Sultans was already terrible in 2005, but TR was still quite ok".
2009 man :smack. It was before the 2013 & 2015 tours. 2005 is neither the best nor the weakest SOS performed by Mark.
If you find more accurate word than the twice "terrible" that is exagerating, I can agree with the rest.
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... but after the 2008 tour.
So I am entitled to think that you thought than 2005 was worse than even 2008 😅
More seriously, I think Sultans was best during the DS days. The Alchemy version is powerful, the BIA tour versions were badass with the sax, and I the OES versions had maybe the best of both worlds - 4 piece "back to the pub" first part, great sax break and bombastic finale. Something ever to be heard again in the solo years. So yes, the song became a shadow of what it used to be, although, for some reasons, I quite like Sion 2015, which was a wonderful evening for me.
I think "terrible" was the word you used. At least for Baloney again. Maybe not for Sultans, but you did talked about strong degrading in guitar playing.
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A simple question for you, Chris, how do you think you're going to establish "the truth" on a public forum with messages scrolling by fast, new people showing up all the time, and most of them never bothering with digging for old topics to find "the truth"?
It honestly doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't keep me up at night.
If I happen to see a post that is incorrect or guessing the facts that don't match what I experienced, I post about it in reply.
Of course I'm not trawling through the AMIT forum looking for people to correct.
Obviously Manu is a superb drummer, so when people post about him I read the thread.
Kind of bizarre.....
You need to make a distinction between an obsessive and someone who looks at topics occasionally and tries to fill in the detail, the facts, for the benefit of everyone reading. I occasionally call out people who argue based on NO FACTS.
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My word this is gotten boring now, can't we just get over all this and move to talk about something else that is worth while?
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My word this is gotten boring now, can't we just get over all this and move to talk about something else that is worth while?
:thumbsup
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My word this is gotten boring now, can't we just get over all this and move to talk about something else that is worth while?
Indeed.
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this is getting boring. using my presidential powers and closing this thread. Chris if you feel that this still has some live let me know and i will be happy to reopen