Grumpy Artists

[Chris W]

But who's denying it??? Who's questioning anything???

You. Every time it comes up you work very hard to dismiss the facts. You said previously that you thought Manu wasn't good enough, which is why Mark had given him a bad time on the session. You WEREN'T there were you.
Any time I've said anything you've tried to paint me as over sensitive or exaggerating. You make all manner of excuses for Mark's bad behaviour - everyone has a bad day etc....
I think you should just move on. I usually only ever chime in when I'm asked a direct question, or in order to correct your misinformation and massaging of the facts.

[Chris W]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, why I should defend somebody I don't even know?

Great! Then I look forward to you not doing it from now on.

[quizzaciously]

But who's denying it??? Who's questioning anything???

You. Every time it comes up you work very hard to dismiss the facts. You said previously that you thought Manu wasn't good enough, which is why Mark had given him a bad time on the session. You WEREN'T there were you.
Any time I've said anything you've tried to paint me as over sensitive or exaggerating. You make all manner of excuses for Mark's bad behaviour - everyone has a bad day etc....
I think you should just move on. I usually only ever chime in when I'm asked a direct question, or in order to correct your misinformation and massaging of the facts.

I never said Manu wasn't good enough. You seem to dislike me on a genetic level and invent words I never intended to say, and no matter what I write, you'll say the opposite. If I'll say "white", you'll say "black". Or, like Ed said about the Mark vs. David relationship, if I say the Sun will rise tomorrow, you'll say no, it will not.

Let this be a reminder of how people can just dislike each other without a single reason. It's just life, folks, it's the way it works. The fact you always give me difficult time on this forum will never stop me liking your work and attitute towards truth, but seriously we need to agree to disagree. Can't we be friends?

[Chris W]

I never said Manu wasn't good enough.

You did actually, in a different thread several months ago. Someone mentioned that Manu didn't enjoy his OES experience and that he didn't like working with mark. You chimed in that Mark was very demanding a perfectionist and that Manu probably couldn't play to that level.

I don't 'dislike' people on forums. However, in the threads I post in, you have repeatedly contradicted me, even though you were never witness to my experiences. You repeatedly back up Mark as the good guy. the genius, no matter what anyone else posts.
I don't even dislike you for that. It's just tiring (not to mention annoying for other forum members) to have to keep correcting your falsehoods and hero worship that holds no bounds.

[Beryl]

I think it's pretty obvious from several first-hand sources (including the great Chris Whitten) that MK was quite an asshole in early 90s, and it's pretty obvious from at least as many sources that MK is a pretty nice guy from 1995 onwards, with the possible exception of anything related to ex members cover bands (remember the horrible, mean spirited song Terminal Of Tribute To) and the extremely weird RnR Hall of Fame debacle. So my deduction and conclusion is that MK has been pretty much a nice chap and in peace with himself for 30 years but obviously still hates Alan Clark.

[ds1984]

We should be all face to face to discuss.

I find forum format not that good for passionnate people to share opposite opinions.

 

[herlock]

I think it's pretty obvious from several first-hand sources (including the great Chris Whitten) that MK was quite an asshole in early 90s, and it's pretty obvious from at least as many sources that MK is a pretty nice guy from 1995 onwards, with the possible exception of anything related to ex members cover bands (remember the horrible, mean spirited song Terminal Of Tribute To) and the extremely weird RnR Hall of Fame debacle. So my deduction and conclusion is that MK has been pretty much a nice chap and in peace with himself for 30 years but obviously still hates Alan Clark.

TOTT is quite nice musically, but so harsh lyrically, yes.
I think Alan's behaviour, like his horrible sentence "Mark was not such an important part of DS after all" led to it, but this is really too bad. Alan is a very talented keyboard player, probably the best Mark ever had. Jim is a master of piano, true, but something of the raw DS energy is still missing.
Mark is like Dr Knopfler and M. Mark to me.

When he is happy and gets what he wants, he can be quite relax. He respected a lot Pick and Alan's talent. He let John, Hal, Jack have the most ridiculous stage attire and dancing attitude. He never tried to replace John, although there were certainly more competent bassists around, just because John was so loyal.

On the other hand, when his is grumpy and doesn't get what he wants, he can be a ass. He didn't give space to his own brother. He didn't like it when Pick had his own magazine cover. He let Jack and Terry down when he didn't need them anymore. And there is of course this whole OES tour grumpy behaviour that has been discussed at length here...

I guess MK is simply human, with a light side and a dark side. But there is still good in him! 😊

[Chris W]

I guess MK is simply human

Outside of the music business there are ethics and laws that employers HAVE to abide by.
Ask yourself why society has moved in that direction.
I've been in music full time for over 45 years and have experienced many, many different work scenarios and colleagues.
When you say 'MK is simply human', well remember that he was already a multi-millionaire, walking out to a huge standing ovation every show, backed by the best musicians he could find, playing to the best of their abilities to make the show the best it could be. The whole thing was his idea - the OES album, the very long tour to promote it.
At some point you have to look at yourself and say, I shouldn't take out my depression and anger on the people around me. Maybe that doesn't happen 365 days of the year, I understand, but it should be the odd bad day at most.

[herlock]

Chris, where I fully agree with you is this:

It can be human and forgivable to be grumpy and not up to basic courtesy standards, when you are unhappy in your life.

But it is not right not to try to fix it afterwards, once you recover from your struggles.

We all know that MK re-energized himself between 1993 and 1996. He rested and met his new wife. By 1996 he was happy again.

I guess what he should have done at this moment is pick up his phone, invite you for a nice dinner home, and tell you : "Look, Chris, I confess that 4 years ago I have been an ass. It was nothing personal, just me being unhappy. I'm so sorry for this, and let me tell you that you've have been awesome to put up with me in such a professional way".

It sounds simple... But sadly, some people are just not good at looking back and fixing things. I guess he is just one of them, unfortunately.

[Jules]

TOTT is quite nice musically, but so harsh lyrically, yes.
I think Alan's behaviour, like his horrible sentence "Mark was not such an important part of DS after all" led to it, but this is really too bad. Alan is a very talented keyboard player, probably the best Mark ever had. Jim is a master of piano, true, but something of the raw DS energy is still missing.

I always understood that sentence as a joke in the context that they were playing live DS songs without MK, but not to take it seriously as Alan obviously know that DS was MK songs and guitar and the idea on arrangements came from him althought Alan was the one transforming that arrangements from MK mind to real music.

[Chris W]

Chris, where I fully agree with you is this:

It can be human and forgivable to be grumpy and not up to basic courtesy standards, when you are unhappy in your life.

But it is not right not to try to fix it afterwards, once you recover from your struggles.

Whatever happened afterwards is another thing, I don't really care. What I think isn't right is to make a whole bunch of other people unhappy for almost a whole world tour. I don''t need an apology four years later, or even now. I just need people to have more empathy in the moment.

[herlock]

Yeah, I can see your point, Chris.

It is too bad that MK has the reputation of being humble, yet did not always live up to this reputation...

Cheers

[peterromer]

@Chris:
Just a thought or two.
What about John Illsley. Where was he in the whole OES tour thing. I know you wrote earlier something of him being in a smaller group with Mark and Guy when it came to socialising, if I remember correctly.
But did John ever say "Thank you" ? I mean he was after all a great and important part of DS.

Also, what if...... If Mark would ever one day reach out to you, would you be intrigued enough to participate in a MK project ?   (or would you just leave it as things were)

Thanks for the ongoing answers here. 

[dustyvalentino]

He let John, Hal, Jack have the most ridiculous stage attire and dancing attitude.

Eh, their dress and stage movement was pretty conservative for the 80s!

[herlock]

He let John, Hal, Jack have the most ridiculous stage attire and dancing attitude.

Eh, their dress and stage movement was pretty conservative for the 80s!

Many words come to my mind to describe Jack's half-naked attire on stage, but "conservative" is not one of them 🤣