Grumpy Artists

[Chris W]

I said it in one of the current threads.
I completely know that most people are tired of the back and forth about Mark in the early 90's.

I just want to say, if you weren't in the room, you don't know. That's my whole opinion really, nothing more.
If Manu Katche says he didn't enjoy working with Mark because he was difficult, unpleasant. Take note and move on. Nothing is going to change by arguing about it.
The only reason I ever reply is because people who weren't there make up things about it, or contradict the facts. That's it.

Let's have discussions about Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler without guessing what it was like to be there.... and we can all move on and not have to have these debates ever again.

[dustyvalentino]

I don't see why it's even a debate at this point, you have confirmed it, Ed has confirmed it, Phil even called Mark "an ogre" in a magazine interview that was released WHILE THE TOUR WAS STILL ONGOING!

[Chris W]

Ha, ha, yeah.
I witnessed Phil being picked on in not a very nice way.
He obviously decided to move on from it so he could work with Mark again after the OES tour and be one of DS Legacy's founding members.
I stopped doing DS Experience because it brought back too many unpleasant memories, despite Chris and Terence being super, super human beings.

[dustyvalentino]

I stopped doing DS Experience because it brought back too many unpleasant memories, despite Chris and Terence being super, super human beings.

This is REALLY interesting, I'll be careful not to make too much of the comparison but it seems like it is a BIT like PTSD/Vietnam style flashbacks 

[quizzaciously]

Did you notice that Mark barely talks about this period of his career? If at all? In John's book, he spoke about the OES period in fast-forward mode. They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully. That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy. Maybe we can learn something from him again. It reminds me of this legendary "Two monks and a Woman — Zen story":

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman. Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.
Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

[Chris W]

Did you notice that Mark barely talks about this period of his career? If at all? In John's book, he spoke about the OES period in fast-forward mode. They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully.

No, it's because in their eyes it wasn't wholly unsuccessful. Probably for both their least happy period of Dire Straits.
The album didn't build on BIA success and the tour was a struggle, initially financially, then mentally as it dragged on, show after show.
That IS why they don't talk about it. Again you are projecting from a position of knowing NONE of the facts.

[Chris W]

I stopped doing DS Experience because it brought back too many unpleasant memories, despite Chris and Terence being super, super human beings.

This is REALLY interestin

Yes, I had recurring stress dreams for a few years after the tour.

[TheTimeWasWrong]

They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully. That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.

MK is my musical hero, but I've accepted for a long time that heroes can be dicks too. What's in it for you to defend him? Believe me, I'm super fascinated by what happened after the BIA tour. From the outside, it seems like all the success went to his head, at least for a little while, maybe combined with personal problems in his life. He might be a brilliant songwriter and inventive guitarist, but he said countless times that he isn't a 'proper' musician, so while I think you should treat everybody you work with with respect, hearing about his behavior towards giants like Manu is not something I could ever defend.

[Chris W]

My aim with this topic is to draw a line under it all....especially by making a distinction between the people with personal experience - Manu, Pick, Me, Ed and the fans who are looking from the outside in. Most of the time people accept the limit of their personal knowledge and concentrate on other things about the band and the music, one or two apparently don't.

[dustyvalentino]

Did you notice that Mark barely talks about this period of his career? If at all?

There are times in my life where I have behaved in a manner that is an embarrassment to me now and I am ashamed of how I behaved.

I barely talk about those times, if at all.

[Chris W]

We all have bad days and exhibit an unreasonable attitude sometimes.
When it becomes a pattern that is talked about by multiple people you have to just accept it's a personality issue.

[qjamesfloyd]

I guess the question is, has Mark or anyone else learned from it? I think yes, as I have not heard of other people say similar things since he went solo, although I am happy to be corrected.

[quizzaciously]

They couldn't care less about all this, and yet, time and time again, people tell unpleasant stories about Mark, the bully. That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.

MK is my musical hero, but I've accepted for a long time that heroes can be dicks too. What's in it for you to defend him? Believe me, I'm super fascinated by what happened after the BIA tour. From the outside, it seems like all the success went to his head, at least for a little while, maybe combined with personal problems in his life. He might be a brilliant songwriter and inventive guitarist, but he said countless times that he isn't a 'proper' musician, so while I think you should treat everybody you work with with respect, hearing about his behavior towards giants like Manu is not something I could ever defend.

The topic is called "Grumpy Artists". I'm not defending Mark, and I find it silly that so many full-grown adults see me as a "stupid fanboy" when, in reality, I'm trying to appeal to common sense. I studied the lives of dozens of my favourite artists, not only Mark's, and I have experience working with creative people. Yes, not songwriters in the early 90s suffering from life problems and bullying their mates out of sheer misery, but I've seen some shit in my life.

I see all creative people living outside of this world, no matter how creative. When you're creating truly original stuff, you're quite literally thinking outside the box. And when people say, "Oh, Bob Dylan is such a dick, he did this and that." Well, this "dick" wrote songs that changed the world. This "dick" Mark Knopfler created some outstanding stuff, which is everything that matters to me. It matters more than a bad word he said to somebody 40 years ago.

[TheTimeWasWrong]

That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.

...

I'm not defending Mark

That's literally what you said. And you act like you're the only outsider here working with creative people. I'm not denying that geniuses can be dicks, and that it sometimes is necessary to get results, but I see no reason to look away from that and question first-hand experiences from people who were involved.

[quizzaciously]

That's why I feel a little bit tired of this and try to defend the guy.

...

I'm not defending Mark

That's literally what you said. And you act like you're the only outsider here working with creative people. I'm not denying that geniuses can be dicks, and that it sometimes is necessary to get results, but I see no reason to look away from that and question first-hand experiences from people who were involved.

But who's denying it??? Who's questioning anything??? The forum exploded with praise after all the posts and threads from real band members. It couldn't be the other way.

We are just discussing stuff, and I'm always trying to see the picture from Mark's point of view, in answer to which I'm often getting "you're just a fanboy" kind of vibes.

That's why I said I'm defending Mark, but on the other hand, I'm not defending Mark. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, why I should defend somebody I don't even know?

A little empathy goes a long way, and I'm just trying to stop putting labels like "bully", "silly", "grumpy" and "fanboy" on everything. Life is more complex than that, folks!