What's The Matter Baby

[herlock]

It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.

What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway

They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.

David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.

Yes. Just listen to Down to the Waterline a) On the last 1979 concert, featured on the BBC Arena documentary on the Alchemy Blu-Ray, and b) from the Dortmund 1980 concert, available on the official DS YouTube channel. I feel that although the latter has keyboards, the former sounds better, especially because Hal's rythm guitar is nowhere near David's, which brings a unique groove to the song...

[JF]

Fully agree. David was mature enough to leave an increasingly famous and successful band. He could had stayed and getting his money for nothing but took the bravest decision. Leaving and pursuing his own career.

He's not in the richest list of people in the country but did good enough to earn a living.

I agree about David's choice beeing mature.
But I'm not sure that DS was "an increasingly famous and successful band" when he left it.

I think DS became very big with hits like Romeo and Juliet and later Private Investigations.

At the time of the Making Movies album recording, DS was not THAT big. Of course, Sultans had success, but Communiqué sales weren't at the top, and like Ed says in the Oldifield book, most venues during the 2nd american tour (autumn 79) were half empty.

So in july 80, when David left the band, I don't think it was at such a fame

[herlock]

Fully agree. David was mature enough to leave an increasingly famous and successful band. He could had stayed and getting his money for nothing but took the bravest decision. Leaving and pursuing his own career.

He's not in the richest list of people in the country but did good enough to earn a living.

I agree about David's choice beeing mature.
But I'm not sure that DS was "an increasingly famous and successful band" when he left it.

I think DS became very big with hits like Romeo and Juliet and later Private Investigations.

At the time of the Making Movies album recording, DS was not THAT big. Of course, Sultans had success, but Communiqué sales weren't at the top, and like Ed says in the Oldifield book, most venues during the 2nd american tour (autumn 79) were half empty.

So in july 80, when David left the band, I don't think it was at such a fame

Yes, Ed wanted a change of musical direction, hence the Making Movies album and increase complexity with the addition of keyboards. The album will be a great success, but this had yet to be proven in summer 80. Still, the success trajectory was there, and David had a very concrete idea of what success (300 shows!). He couldn't handle the pression of touring well anyway, another reason for his departure.

[Rolo]

I agree about David's choice beeing mature.
But I'm not sure that DS was "an increasingly famous and successful band" when he left it.

I think DS became very big with hits like Romeo and Juliet and later Private Investigations.

At the time of the Making Movies album recording, DS was not THAT big. Of course, Sultans had success, but Communiqué sales weren't at the top, and like Ed says in the Oldifield book, most venues during the 2nd american tour (autumn 79) were half empty.

So in july 80, when David left the band, I don't think it was at such a fame

I think that, DK was mature enough to leave the band.
First, because, in my opinion, he is a "romantic" musician, it means that he had a vision for his career that as apart from MKs vision. So, when Mark came up with a new direction for DS, David's position became weaker than ever.

He saw that his songs will never would be on any DS album or single and his position as a 'rythm guitar player' will be the opposite from his vision as a musician perse.
As a guitar player, DK is not a session/side man. Was not his intent to play guitar as Hal, Jack or Phil.

As Mark, David is an artitist and both has singularities about their artforms. Mark is a genius in his own way, a very smart guy with a very comercial tinus. Mark chance the band directions many times because he knew that if the band had stucked on the style from 77 to 79, they wiould be forgotten.

The problem, in my opinion was that DK, after he left the band,  choose another path for his musical solo jorney. I think that he was persuaded to made those strange metal oriented songs and he tooked it to keep a safe distance to his big brother band.

I think that, if DK would followed a path like Tom Fogerty has after his breakup with CCR, is possible that DK had more positive critics about his work. So, in my opinion, DK story could be better.

Proof of that was that, when David releases The Giver, his career, at least from my point of view, starts to be treated with respect.

DK is not a genius as his brother but he is not bad songwriter either. He have good songs and some of them could be part of any Straits record.

Again, if David would choose a folkish style from the beggining of his solo career, his story could be better.

As Hal Lindes said when he was questioned about filling DK shoes as a guitar player from DS: - David shoes are big shoes.

[Pierre]

It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.

What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway

They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.

David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.

Yes he is a good guitar player I know but Mark wasn't happy with some of his playing and there's this famous argument about him not being able to play some rhythm part in Romeo. Granted Mark was probably annoyed with him and any excuse to force him to leave was welcome but there definitely was an issue with his musical ability or input according to Mark.

Ok John got to stay but how many guitar players and drummers did MK use? Hal, Jack, Phil etc...

[Jules]

It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.

What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway

They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.

David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.

Yes he is a good guitar player I know but Mark wasn't happy with some of his playing and there's this famous argument about him not being able to play some rhythm part in Romeo. Granted Mark was probably annoyed with him and any excuse to force him to leave was welcome but there definitely was an issue with his musical ability or input according to Mark.

Ok John got to stay but how many guitar players and drummers did MK use? Hal, Jack, Phil etc...

Mark wasn't happy with David because David wasn't happy with the band and his feelings were growing worse and worse so he wasn't in the same mood that during the first two years of the band. How can Mark can be happy with someone that isn't happy himself being there?

According to John's book, he went to talk to David and told him he had two options, to apologize with MK and keep working hard, or leaving, and David didn't hesitate to choose leaving. He wasn't happy, he wasn't in the mood to keep playing in the band. How can Mark can be happy with someone who didn't want to stay and leaves as soon as he is giving that choices?

I'm sure if David would had been more comfortable and happy in the band he would had stayed as long as John, but David wanted to work in his own songs so there were not chances for that in the band.

[hunter]

I'm pretty sure that had David been allowed greater artistic input, he would have been motivated to stay in the band and work on improving as a musician. But imagine the feeling of gradually becoming being a useful idiot strummer in a "vehicle" that existed to realize Mark's dreams. And on top of that being Mark's "little brother". In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically), and with musical input from Mark, John and Pick, David's songs could have been shaped into some really good ones. It just wasn't going to happen, and I totally understand why David chose to leave (and later Pick).

[Robson]

"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)

Any examples?

[hunter]

"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)

Any examples?

An example of a good DK song (IMO): Ship of Dreams

An example of a mediocre MK song (IMO): My Bacon Roll

[herlock]

I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !

[Robson]

I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !

I agree.

[Jules]

"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)

Any examples?

I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.

[superval99]

I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !

You took the words right out of my mouth, herlock!    I think that the live version is miles better than the album, especially the solo and also the noodling at the end and the crashing guitar.  Much better than Ship of Dreams - David's voice isn't for me!

[herlock]

"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)

Any examples?

I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.

I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All that matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...

[superval99]

"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)

Any examples?

I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.

I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All the matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...

I like all of those.