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Author Topic: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason  (Read 4987 times)

OfflineJimbo

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2024, 04:35:19 PM »
Illsley's bass lines are excellent and sound very deep on the first two albums and on LOG.
In MM the power has been reduced (the basslines of Tunnel and Skateaway are perfect).
The bass sound of BBC and Rainbow is notable.
On and off in Alchemy and OtN.
The DS sound without Illsley's bass loses half of its potential.
Decisive together with Pick.

OfflineIron Hand

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2024, 05:32:15 PM »
Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).
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Offlinedustyvalentino

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2024, 12:46:03 AM »
Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).

Not really “bad” though, Eliminator is awesome!
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Offlineds1984

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2024, 07:59:03 PM »
Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).

Not really “bad” though, Eliminator is awesome!

The drum intro on Gimme Your Lovin'
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OfflineIron Hand

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2024, 07:42:37 PM »
Whatever it is, still not quite as "bad" as what happened to ZZ Top... which is curious considering how MFN was inspired by the hi-tech version of ZZ Top (which basically amounted to "Billy Gibbons + others" with the occasional Dusty Hill vocal).

Not really “bad” though, Eliminator is awesome!
I mean in the sense of the musicians listed on the cover actually playing on the records. (And even when they stopped using drum machines in the 90s, the drummer still wasn't Frank Beard most of the time...)
"I don't know how you came to get the Bette Davis kneeees"

Offlinedmg

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2024, 08:04:41 PM »
Illsley's bass lines are excellent and sound very deep on the first two albums and on LOG.
In MM the power has been reduced (the basslines of Tunnel and Skateaway are perfect).
The bass sound of BBC and Rainbow is notable.
On and off in Alchemy and OtN.
The DS sound without Illsley's bass loses half of its potential.
Decisive together with Pick.

 :clap

I think Communiqué is especially notable with Once Upon a Time, News, Follow Me Home and the title track all pretty much driven by the bass line.
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Offlinemariosboss

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2024, 03:09:39 AM »
Illsley's bass lines are excellent and sound very deep on the first two albums and on LOG.
In MM the power has been reduced (the basslines of Tunnel and Skateaway are perfect).
The bass sound of BBC and Rainbow is notable.
On and off in Alchemy and OtN.
The DS sound without Illsley's bass loses half of its potential.
Decisive together with Pick.

How do you know Illsley played on all the songs pre Brothers In Arms? The sound is more down to the producers and engineers.

Offlinemariosboss

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2024, 03:37:12 AM »

You can't just replace band members though. 

You can if you get the band leader (and/or songwriter) to agree the album would be better with replacements.

Exactly,
I'm not sure why any of us are even debating with someone like Chris who has extensive experience in a recording and live environment, especially pre-digital/pro tools and has first hand experience replacing drummers on albums, so the Terry Williams / Omar Hakim story regarding BIA is not a rare thing. In fact even as a kid I was always not convinced about the drumming, Actually I thought it was even perhaps programmed. I have mentioned this before on this forum but for example the drumming on Def Leppards 3rd album Pyromania to me always sounded programmed. It was too perfect... yet the revelation that Rick Allen didn't play on that album only came about a few years ago to many fans suprise. The irony is he played more on the albums after his accident...

There are loads of examples of ghost musicians so to speak on albums. Many of those musicians aren't even credited. Chris in fact I bet isn't allowed to list all the albums or songs he has worked on because it wasn't in the contract. Also out of respect. I could be wrong but i'm sure Chris can answer that.

An example I have is a band called Urge Overkill. A very popular underground grunge band in the early 90's under Steve Albini's stewardship... they used to play with the likes of Nirvana. They were more about the image than the music. Medallions, clothing, attitude. However when they went mainstream Albini got very annoyed and even would go on to admit that the band weren't great musicians. Fast forward to the rather delightful album Saturation, released in 1993, and that was critically acclaimed. An extremely polished effort unlike their previous releases which had a more dirty / grungy sound. However i've read various articles since that actually whilst the songs were written and sung by the band, a lot of the music was recorded by session musicians or the producer. Andy Kravitz, who was one of the producers on that album for example played most of Blackie Onnasis's drum parts (RIP.) Whilst the bass was down to Hugh Macdonald apparently (Bon Jovi) and in fact Chuck Treese played bass on the follow up album the excellent Exit The Dragon.

So the Illsley stat was not at all surprising. There will be hundreds of examples with regards to albums from the 80's / 90's but like Chris has mentioned these days you can correct mistakes so there isn't as much of a call for session musicians to replace part because you can just cut and paste or replace parts with programmed music. I loathe that sort of thing actually, and i'm quite critical of albums these days and the way they sound. Very generic, and you can't really get a sense of the recording studio, the ambience etc. Then again i'm a hypocrite as technology has allowed me to record my own material / albums... and IF I can't afford my drummer mate to record a session in a studio I can use programmed / sampled drum sounds. The average listener wouldn't be able to tell the difference but i'm sure most of you and Chris would!

OfflineChris W

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2024, 09:06:43 AM »
I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.

Offlinequizzaciously

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2024, 01:20:59 PM »
I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.

As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.

Offline2manyguitars

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2024, 02:06:10 PM »
I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.

As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.

Yep, I suppose we're talking about 2 vastly differing disciplines really. Live performance speaks for itself but studio recording is open to a far wider range of approaches. Personally I see it as more akin to sculpting....

Offlinejbaent

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2024, 02:22:08 PM »
I'm happy to discuss the subject, even when people disagree.
I had no contracts to work on albums in the 1980's, no NDA's, I can talk about any time I replaced a band's drummer.
Sometimes I'm not sure myself. I recorded songs for an album, but by the time it was mixed and finally released I wasn't always sure if it was me any more. Yeah, often I wasn't credited.

As far as I'm concerned, studio recording was always filled with this "controversy" right from the invention of recording. Proper singers overdubbed actors for movies, musicians overdubbed everything, band musicians got replaced, then Pro Tools and Beat Detective came, autotune. The Doors recorded bass guitar in the studio even though their keyboardist famously played bass on his organ, simply because you need more low end on the record. It's not controversy, just achieving the best result possible as these things will sell like hot cakes in millions of copies, and be seen or heard by millions if not billions of people, so it has to be perfect.

Yep, I suppose we're talking about 2 vastly differing disciplines really. Live performance speaks for itself but studio recording is open to a far wider range of approaches. Personally I see it as more akin to sculpting....

It is said that the Rolling Stones have a couple of players, one of them a guitar player, playing behind the stage so, it seems that live there are some tricks as well.
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OfflineRail King

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2024, 02:44:46 PM »
just like mark spent a lot of time playing on the Steely dan album and then only appeared for 7 sec
the same may be the case here.
he may have indeed played on a version of WOL that just did not end up on the album??

It's funny. Just as in the discussion about Ed Bicknell not socialising with Mark, people are reaching for an alternative that feels nicer.

Hey Pottel, where can I read that story about Ed Bicknell and his (non-)socialising with Mark?

OfflineRail King

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2024, 02:49:02 PM »
Part of it might just be a feel thing though.
The whole band LOVE Glenn Worf and his playing but don’t forget that Guy’s initial bass recording made the Final Cut on Redbud Tree as they didn’t feel Glenn could improve it.

Ironically, the only thing that COULD be improved on Redbud Tree (which is a true gem of a song) is Guy's synth. By "improved", I mean abandoned. Maybe they should have asked Glenn to play (nothing) on the synth.  ::)

OfflineChris W

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Re: Revelation about BiA album from bass player Neil Jason
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2024, 03:04:54 PM »
Mostly people on stage play live in concert and mostly band members record on their albums.
There are exceptions but it's nowhere near the majority of cases.

 

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