Hi there Flying Plates fans,
CONGRATULATIONS!
The Pick Withers thread currently active is fascinating, frequently eluded and sometimes wacky ( nothing different there then) so let me put my 2 cents in as a semi drummer who played numerous soundchecks with DS and all the live Notting Hillbillies shows ie behind Mark though in a different musical context except possibly the first two DS albums.
As per previous I shall follow the posts.
Intro.
Considering you are supposed to be fans I see not one person has corrected Brunno’s typo.
His name is spelled WITHERS.
Pick Whiters is a painter and decorator who charges £30 an hour and lives near York. He has a very attractive assistant called Doris “ ladders” Smyth.
Incidentally the FIRST drum kit he played with the band and on the first two albums is for sale ..if any of the guitarists amongst you wants to purchase and get details of same I can connect you.
Reply 1.
One is a TV in a very small studio as a 4 piece ..capacity maybe 50. .
The other was a filmed live gig in a 16,000 capacity arena, as a 5 piece. ( part of On Location as you call it ).
They are not worth comparing BUT since you’ve used as examples of something ( not sure what) then ….
Does anything occur to you about that?
Then when you’ve figured out what I’m getting at, think about the next sections.
Have a look at the excellent On Every Bootleg site.
1977
The shows they played in 1977 were basically clubs and pubs around London average audience around 200 or less, small stages, low ceilings.
1978
The shows played in 1978 after I came on board and which I booked/set up went up considerably to average audiences of around 1500-2500.
Live At The BBC is a good example of exactly how he was playing then.
So substantial increase but still not huge venues.
On the support tours eg Talking Heads Climax Blues Styx ( aborted) stage room and equipment was necessarily limited.
1979
The shows they played in 1979 pretty much continue the level of 1978 but with increasing forays outside the UK eg first and second US tours maybe around 1000 average interspersed with a few cut down German arenas ( 2000) in February then as their popularity grew full blown arenas in May 79 ( around 4-5000) , UK halls ( around 3500 or less ) in June and a few festivals in July ( shared stages, not huge..maybe 25000 max).
The second disastrous US tour in September was slightly higher caps as was the European tour in October, so both probably averaging 3-4000 max.
Ireland and London in Dec 2500-3500 ( Rainbow).
1980
Oct/Nov 1980 caps same as second US tour
Dec /Jan UK caps same as previous tours.
March/April Australasia was theatres around 3500 with one big outdoor in Auckland about 25000
🔥Then came the first substantial jump UP🔥
Arenas of 5-6000 plus the chaotic Italian leg which were CONTRACTED to be 25000 max but were in fact up to 70,000 and we did not have the stage or sound to cover those adequately!!!
Pick then left after recording LOG.
I can't recall when he changed his kit but it went up to larger tom toms and a couple of extra crash cymbals. Maybe a bit bigger Bass Drum by 2”
Otherwise IT WAS THE SAME ( different brand).
During his time with the band it was RARE he ever played to more than 3-3500 punters tops.
Reply 2.
I have given you the answer to your rhetorical question above. .
WHY do you think his role changed IF it did?
Personally, and I was present at 95% of those gigs I don't think his role changed any more than the role of the others although the sound mixer and lighting guy DEFINITELY changed what they were doing for obvious treasons and the backline OVERALL increased in volume. IT HAD TO including him.
Reply 3.
This is correct with the caveat of what I've said above.
They were becoming more popular.
With the exception of DK who wanted to be less popular THAT was what we were all trying to do and as a consequence of the album's popularity ( 1/2/3 ) I was able to increase the level at which they were playing because of DEMAND.
That’s true of 99% of bands who make it.
EVERYBODY adjusts including the drummers.
I'm saying what Chris is saying in a different way .
I must tell you and him that I NEVER heard MK or JI EVER tell Pick to play harder and louder. Not at rehearsals , not at shows. NOT ONCE. THEY DIDN’T NEED TO, IT FOLLOWED NATURALLY.
If he says that happened then I must have been somewhere else playing with cymbals.
All I noticed was that he played a bit harder as a consequence of the venue sizes increasing, the volume increasing and the nature of the music changing eg MM versus the first two and the last was the biggest factor .
THAT was the reason for any changes and I don't think those changes were that great , but for sure the addition of keyboards and having a dynamic rhythm guitarist in Hal made a difference.
He could hardly have stayed at the same level as per 1977-1979 , he would have been inaudible!
Chris is correct re technique.
Reply 4.
Mark as a personality was HUGELY different on the OES tour to the one's Pick did. Pick was an original member not a paid sideman and M and J were way more deferential to him AND he was perfectly capable of giving as good as he got ..the dynamic was completely different and we all knew what a great player he was.
He had equal status at that time which was steadily and sadly eroded.
The “best” in the band musically equal to MK for sure.
Reply 5.
I've answered this. No disrespect Chris, you are basing on your experience post Terry , you weren’t there then. It was more democratic, less dictatorial. But not for long. 🧛♂️
Reply 6.
Ah ha! Common sense. Thank you.
Reply 7.
He never complained to me, they were not so long compared to many many bands. Anyway you get out what you put in.
Reply 8.
Yes. You have said in one para what it’s taken me 45 mins to type.
Reply 9.
None of us wanted him to leave…when he came and told me first I was devastated but I completely understood why. Fortunately I knew Terry.
Reply 10.
No. You’re wrong. A composer does not change his/her composition to get the first violinist to stay. The only composer I can think of who wrote FOR his musicians was Duke Ellington.
M COULDN’T change his direction , it was guiding him not the other way round.
As with all writers.
Reply 11.
N/A
Reply 12.
Correct. I had no input into HOW he played or ANY musician I've ever dealt with. I am an arrogant fuck but not stupid. 🤣
His departure did change the sound and feel and at exactly the right moment with hindsight so ironically DS good fortune.
Reply 13.
The drum sound on MM was down to Jimmy and it was tortuous to achieve.
Probably an entire week trying different snare drums, floor toms, cymbals.
But it worked. Shelly was a huge part of that as well. Pick got pretty frustrated.
LOG …agreed. This was where M’s role shifted and became more dictatorial. Not a criticism..the work and hours he put into that was phenomenal, amazing actually.
The most of any of the records.
It's just a shame ID was on there…all drum machines date, that’s dated.
My memory is Pick played all of TR.
His work on both of those records was outstanding.
So glad he did them and got the rewards.
Reply 14.
Same. I never heard John say that. Ever. He wanted louder bass. All bass players want louder bass.
Reply 15.
I’ve not read that book.
Well Pick and Mark were only there about 5/6 days so it must have been quick lesson.
The Oldfield book is a reason for The Inquisition book burning.
The Myles Palmer book should be thrown on the pyre at maximum burn.
Both rubbish. Complete nonsense. Pathetic.
When M and I went to NY in Jan 80 we discussed keys with Jimmy and went to see some gigs with key players and plotted to steal one ..can't recall his name. Was with Pat Metheny and another with Cyndi Lauper ( b4 she became Cyndi L..now SHE is a fuck off singer!).
Reply 16.
I laughed at this one 😂
Reply 17.
Sorry….It’s not worth seeking out, drivel of the first order with multiple mistakes. .
That quote from me was me being disingenuous to cover up the real reasons. I knew exactly why he left.
Do you really believe what you read in interviews ? Really? Everybody uses them to create an illusion, it's called PR.
John’s quote re Pick is nonsense in my view but it suited the moment ( he is correct re David).
Bands do not operate as they tell people EVER.
But that's another subject.
When musicians get older and write memoirs THEN it gets real read Keith Richards, Pete Townshend, Roger Daltrey, Francis Rossi, not John Illsley's.
Reply 18/19.
Correct.
Reply 20
Aaaah. “Personal issues”. That far far far outweighed the volume stuff etc. BY FAR.
Reply 21.
I know you’re being serious but this had me laughing. It goes back to my point 17 above and unfortunately it’s you the fans, who get duped. Sad really.
Pompous? NEVER 🤠 ( We can all be pompous)
Reply 22.
Absolutely classic!
It’s this kind of observation that ( sometimes) makes me want to do a book.
The Psychology of The Creative.
Coincidentally I'm meeting a v well known music author tomorrow who is pitching something VERY similar and can I give him my experience. Well maybe a little…...
There isn’t enough paper in the World.
Reply 23.
Would it?
Reply 24.
He could get his ghost writer to do…..he’s got all the web links on file.
Reply 25.
But did HE write it?
Reply 26.
Nothing to add or subtract at this point in time. .
Reply 27.
And now you’ve got me you lucky gentleman. How do you know what the “ good people “ do?
Reply 28/29/30/31/32.
N/A
Reply 33
Your English is fine. You should post more.
Just consider that maybe they ( and me) are trying to tell ALL the readers here how WE saw it at the time , some great, some good, some not so good, some shitty. Like life.
Would you prefer we created the illusion I refer to above?
And by the way I don't always agree with Chris W because he’s looking at it from a drum stool and I'm looking at it from an office chair and numerous other positions, some horizontal.
Reply 34.
And I've met them both and Lars Ulrich The Worlds Greatest Drummer.
Reply 35.
I've tried to answer this.
Yes. Joop. Known to many ladies as “ 2 and 4”. Great bloke..a fucking star. .
Reply 36
100% correct.
Terry could not have done albums 1 and 2 as well as Pick and Pick could not have done the BIA tour as well as Terry.
Manu and Jeff could have done ALL the records and tours albeit in different styles.
I tried to get Steve Gadd in after Pick left but there was an hilarious reason why that didn't work ( Steve is the GOAT along with Buddy, oh and Lars Ulrich) .
Reply 37
N/A
Reply 38/39/40
Yes but with the caveat I mentioned above that the original lineup was pretty democratic and after MM it became less so. By BIA it was a dictatorship. By OES it was Genghis Khan.
You pay your money for nothing and get your choice.
I agree with his other comments ..they ought to be self evident,
I hope this has helped those who can hear.
