Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[Love Expresso]

I'm lost. What questions does Ed answer?

Not questions but posts in this thread. The replies are numbered you see.

LE

[fan no more]

I'm lost. What questions does Ed answer?

[fan no more]

Actually MK nor any other DS member wanted Pick to leave. So MK ego or ambition had nothing to do despite changing the musical direction of the band, MK wanted Pick to stay.

Yes, but Mark's ambitions were more important than his wish for Pick to stay. If not, Mark would have adjusted his ambitions/direction accordingly.

@Ed re:

Reply 10.
No. You’re wrong. A composer does not change his/her composition to get the first violinist to stay.  The only composer I can think of who wrote FOR his musicians was Duke Ellington.
M COULDN’T change his direction , it was guiding him not the other way round.
As with all writers.

I think that's what I said in reply 10 

Anyway, thank you for stopping by the swamp of the degenerates.

(fan no more, the fartist formerly known as hunter and hunter 2.0)

[Chris W]

Reply 36
100% correct.
Terry could not have done albums 1 and 2 as well as Pick and Pick could not have done the BIA tour as well as Terry.

I find Terry's playing VERY different to Pick's. I personally don't think either could clone each other.
My other comments about Pick are largely gleaned from interviews he gave a a couple of years ago. Of course, he could be wrong, exaggerating or whatever. Pick says he was asked to play harder and louder and that was one reason he was unhappy. Maybe he never was asked, but I WAS, so it made sense to me. Pick talks about being annoyed he was producing an album in The Netherlands and the record company wanted to check something with Mark, making Pick feel like he was under the control of Mark.
Anywhoo......
My professional opinion, from 40 years doing this, is that you can't look at the way a drummer plays and NOT consider the environment they are in.
As that environment changes, so usually the drumming changes, and its not 100% the drummer, but a collaboration of all the people involved.

[Chris W]

The only composer I can think of who wrote FOR his musicians was Duke Ellington.

I'm pretty sure U2 (Bono and Edge) write for the other component parts (Larry Mullen, Adam Clayton).

Classically if you don't want to consider the sound of your musicians (in a band, like The police), you do a solo album.

[Chris W]

Not saying Mark should have written songs that showcased Pick's rather unique style, and not to keep him in the band. But it's very usual for bands to have a sound, especially in the rhythm section, and when that rhythm section is broken up (often by replacing the drummer on a record) the band never sounds the same (or as good) again. This happens more often than it doesn't.
In the case of Dire Straits, it did NOT happen (after Pick's departure).

[Robson]

I'm lost. What questions does Ed answer?

Not questions but posts in this thread. The replies are numbered you see.

LE

Maybe I expected: Special Q & A with Ed Bicknell - THE ANSWERS 

[Brunno Nunes]

"Considering you are supposed to be fans I see not one person has corrected Brunno’s typo.
His name is spelled WITHERS."

I didn't even notice that typo, I just corrected it immediately, thanks "sheriff." Just kidding! 😁

"Reply 1.
One is a TV in a very small studio as a 4 piece ..capacity maybe 50. .
The other was a filmed live gig in a 16,000 capacity arena, as a 5 piece. ( part of On Location as you call it ).
They are not worth comparing BUT since you’ve used as examples of something ( not sure what) then ….
Does anything occur to you about that?
Then when you’ve figured out what I’m getting at, think about the next sections."

I completely agree. I only used the video of the Chorus TV performance in 1978 because of the excellent image and audio quality and the lack of a live video of SOS from 1978 to 1979 for an audience like the one in Dortmund in 1980. I wish I had the full video of DS's performance at the Pink Pop Festival in 1979; there were certainly more people than in Dortmund in 1980. But my intention at the time was simply to analyze how Pick played SOS live in 1978 to 1979 and 1980 to 1981—that's all: the hi-hat, the snare, the hits... how that changed, but that's already been explained.

Your explanation, highlighting the time from 1977 to 1980, was very instructive.

Regarding answer 2:

I also don't think his role changed more than the others. Their live approach changed due to the new horizon Mark wanted to take his music. The question was, how did this change happen in Pick's live performance in 1980/1981? But that's already been explained throughout the thread.

Your contributions are immensely welcome, dear Ed. It's great to have you back here with your clarifications and insights.
Thank you always. 

[Brunno Nunes]

Back to the original thread, I was thinking of examples of songs where you can hear the change prominently in Pick's approach to drumming.  Single Handed Sailor is a good example I think:

1979 - Rockpalast.  A pretty much replicate version of the version that features on the album, delicate drums from Pick:

https://youtu.be/E36JaBiYI0g?si=GCaANltT5Mi_s3DF

Move forward to Boston 1980 and from the word go you have a straight, and harder 4 4 beat kicking off the song and then been backed, presumably by Joop, on tambourine. 

https://youtu.be/yhdMvUZ8KBc?si=9aRaWxx92L6-3Qn2

Note also the addition of keys from Alan.

This was the direction I initially wanted the topic to go; it was this kind of analysis I was looking for: the changes in Pick's approach between the 1978/1981 live sessions.

You brought up an excellent example. "Single Handed Sailor" is a song that definitely works better with the quartet, I think. It loses many subtleties in the 1980s with the new approach. The way he works the hi-hat live in 1979 is spectacular, something that doesn't happen in 1980.

[Brunno Nunes]

Back to the original thread, I was thinking of examples of songs where you can hear the change prominently in Pick's approach to drumming.  Single Handed Sailor is a good example I think:

1979 - Rockpalast.  A pretty much replicate version of the version that features on the album, delicate drums from Pick:

https://youtu.be/E36JaBiYI0g?si=GCaANltT5Mi_s3DF

Move forward to Boston 1980 and from the word go you have a straight, and harder 4 4 beat kicking off the song and then been backed, presumably by Joop, on tambourine. 

https://youtu.be/yhdMvUZ8KBc?si=9aRaWxx92L6-3Qn2

Note also the addition of keys from Alan.

Very interesting comparison!
... so many differences between the two versions. This is a song that got many different ways to be played, in the Boston one - apart from keyboards - there are many differences in the way Mark plays the guitar, the rhythm, and also in the vocal part.
Same as Boston is the New York version, same tour:

It's true!

Despite having three original members in the band (Mark, John, and Pick), in 1980/81 they were distancing themselves from Dire Straits' live sound of 1978/1979, and Ed brought a perspective that might go unnoticed, the type of audience the band was beginning to play for frequently, along with the new sound, the band experimenting with new arrangements, inevitably took them to new musical horizons. Songs like "Telegraph Road" and the ending of "Private Investigations" that they had developed for the end of "News" live, were created during this tour.

Pick's contribution to the development of the live songs was fundamental. It's very interesting to see where these songs came from between 77/78 and how they arrived in 80/81, especially OUATITW and SOS (the only survivors of the first two albums that made it to the LOG tour 82/83, along with PB). Pick indirectly passed the baton to Terry from 1982 onwards, and he continued to bring a new dimension, certainly more appropriate for the band's moment. I believe that the very direction the band was taking made it impossible to include songs like "Southbound Again," "In The Gallery," "Lions," "News," "Skateaway," and "Single Handed Sailor." (I never understood why "Lady Writer" didn't make it past 79, since it was the big hit from the second album.) Obviously, there wasn't room for new arrangements for so many songs, so they were left out, a shame that many of them were forever.

This period with Pick and Alan in the band is intriguing, to say the least. I like to observe the elements that make up this transition from the band's live performance between 1978/1979 (a pub rock band) to 1980/1981 (a rock and roll orchestra). I think this hasn't been fully explored among us on the forum yet. Beyond this forum (a space for avid fans), there's much more talk about success, especially BIA's, this somewhat overshadows other interesting aspects of the band, such as this transition to a rock and roll orchestra (as Mark often referred to it during this period in the 1980s and 1981s).

[wayaman]

I always considered the "On Location" tour as the most interesting one as it is when the band evolved from the early Straits original sound to the rock stars band that would be in the following years, the keyboards arrangements that made the songs longer, the new dynamics on rythmic guitar, the addition of Joop de Korte on percussion... maybe it's not the best era because it was very experimental, but for that reason is the most interesting to me.

[dustyvalentino]

I'm lost. What questions does Ed answer?

Previously I would take the time (and it does take quite a while) cutting and pasting the original posts in with Ed's answers.

On this occasion, Ed told me not to bother doing that.

And I'm not going to argue with Ed Bicknell, people have ended up at the bottom of the Thames for less

[Robson]

I'm lost. What questions does Ed answer?

Previously I would take the time (and it does take quite a while) cutting and pasting the original posts in with Ed's answers.

On this occasion, Ed told me not to bother doing that.

And I'm not going to argue with Ed Bicknell, people have ended up at the bottom of the Thames for less

Ok. Now everything is clear   Thanks Ed i Dusty:)

... By BIA it was a dictatorship. By OES it was Genghis Khan... 

[JF]

The only composer I can think of who wrote FOR his musicians was Duke Ellington.

I'm pretty sure U2 (Bono and Edge) write for the other component parts (Larry Mullen, Adam Clayton).

Classically if you don't want to consider the sound of your musicians (in a band, like The police), you do a solo album.

I think there are many more examples :

- Townshend writes and compsoe for Daltrey's vocie, Entwistle's bass, and Moon's drumming
- Robertson wrote and composed for all The Band members
- Lennon and Macca wrote songs fo Ringo singing, and of course for his unique drumming
- I think that Jagger and Richard had Watt's drumming in head while composing
- in all prog bands like Floyd, Genesis , yes... teh writer/composer think obivisoulsy to the other musicians when he has a new song

just my two cents

[JF]

quote from Ed : "The Oldfield book is a reason for The Inquisition book burning."

strange because it's said on the back cover that the book was "validated" by the band, and especially by Mark as they were students together

I know I am a litlle bit naive, but for long years I always took this book as the DS bible