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Author Topic: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983  (Read 11241 times)

OfflineBrunno Nunes- (Universo Dire Straits)

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Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983
« on: April 08, 2017, 08:51:42 PM »
Hello guys

This goes especially to the Dire Straits bootlegs, collectors just like me.

I was analyzing a bootleg that I have> Paris 22/06/1983 noticed that there are 3 versions of this same bootleg, however, version 1 has versions of the same songs quite different from any other bootleg.

I did a complete analysis of the three bootlegs and I report that without any doubt, the bootleg " Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)" is a completely different bootleg from the other two versions of bootleg 22/06/1983.

The bootleg  "Paris 22/06/1983" is simply a bootleg not yet cataloged, and I tell you that I have some clues, listening to the introduction of Twisting by The pool, we can see that she still has that introduction with Terry on Drums. The latest version containing this typical introduction of Twisting by the pool is in the bootleg Paris- 21.06.83. 22.06.83 until the end of the 1983 tour, Twisting by the pool no longer has the intro with Terry.

This suggests that it is a bootleg that is the date before bootleg Paris- 21.06.83

You can compare, all versions of the songs contained in the bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)" are different from any other bootleg

 Believe I have deciphered this riddle!

  Note that before the shows in Paris 1983, the DS was in Holland. We have the record for the nights of June 13, 1983 and June 16, 1983, okay?
Well, the mysterious bootleg in question The bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)", check out the last track, it is incomplete, but they play a traditional Dutch song (just like they do in the bootlges of the nights Den Bosch 13.06.1983 And Ahoy, 16.06.1983 (Tulpen uit Amsterdam).

So, I can only assume that this bootleg "22/06/1983 (version 1)" is one of the nights in Holland that was not cataloged, 12.06.1983, 14.06.1983 and 17.06.1983. :think


"The version 1 of Paris 22/06/1983" contains the legendary version of Portobello Belle, which is the version that is present in the 1988 MFN collection on the LP and CD MFN (1988), we have the information that Portobello Belle Live Is In June 1983, it seems that it is one of the night in the Netherlands and not in Paris, as I thought, and I believe that many, due to a cataloging error, must certainly be one of those nights inThe Netherlands 12.06.1983, 14.06.1983 and 17.06 .1983.
 :wave
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 05:27:13 PM by wildstraits »
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Offlinejbaent

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 08:53:40 AM »
Did you send this to Jeroen to his On Every Bootleg mail so he can change it in his site?
You might get lucky, now and then

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Offlinejbaent

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 09:21:04 AM »
Paris 22 is not the one with almost perfect sound?

I never heard there were three different versions, actually Jeroen doesn't have three versions of it but one version per night...
You might get lucky, now and then

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Offlinedmg

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 12:14:56 PM »
Hmm...I have only one version of this concert, but it has very good sound as jbaent said so I never bothered to get another copy.  Interesting stuff Holmes.
"I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order."

Offlinebinone

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 12:36:41 PM »
There are 3 different versions of Paris 22/6, 2 of them, of the same recording, but different generation tape. The other, it is not from this date, for sure, after listening them.. It contains the extract of Tulpen uit Amsterdam, so we should consider is from one of the nights in Holland. And certainly it is not from the 13 or 16.

The info of this bootleg says:

Dire Straits live in Paris 1983-06-22 at Palais des Sports.
Engineer: Richard Lebesnerais.
No Dolby - No noise reduction - Stereo.

Sourced from 2 tapes gotten as a gift in Paris in summer 1983.
These tapes are probably a direct copy of the master or 2nd generation.
Sounds like audience recording.
? -> CS -> Cool Edit -> wav -> Flac Frontend -> flac

Quality: A-/B+


Anibody knows Richard Lebesnerais?

OfflineBrunno Nunes- (Universo Dire Straits)

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 03:03:36 AM »
Did you send this to Jeroen to his On Every Bootleg mail so he can change it in his site?

I have not yet informed Jeroen, but I will inform you!

I defend the idea that this bootleg is mistakenly named. The bootleg that has the version of Portobello Belle that is present in the collection of 1988 (MFN), knows that it is not in Paris 22/06/1983 or Paris 23/06/1983 and yes, one of the nights in Holland, (1983 / 06/12, 1983/06/14 and 1983/06/17), since it does not fit with the nights that we have registered 1983/06/13 and 1983/06/16.


I had this same bootleg named mistakenly as Paris 23/06/1983, I spent a lot of time believing that the bootleg in question was Paris 23/06/1983, only recently that I came to realize that Paris 23/06/1983 is another distinct recording, As well as Paris 22/06/1983.

In addition to contain at the end (Tulpen uit Amsterdam), notice the introduction of Twistting by the Poll, still made with Terry. The last time Twistting by the Poll was played that way, it was in the bootleg 1983.06.21 - Paris 83 (Palais des Sports, Paris, France), reinforcing and suggesting that my thesis is correct!  :wave
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OfflineJF

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2017, 05:00:57 PM »
the PB version on the MFN comp is the one from the 23rd june not the 22

I believe that because I listened to this version billion of times and I know it by heart, it's my fav one.

During the quiet moment (can't check it right now, I think it's during the bridge between the end of the song and TOL, but not sure), you can hear a voice shouting "assise !" (which means "sit down" in french)
of course, a french person could have been attending a gig in Netherlands, but in this case I think he (she) would have shouted it in english, not in french. So I am quite sure that this recording is from France, so from Paris, and it is for 100% sure the same as the MFN comp (except a very little vocal edit)

hope it can help :wave

OfflineJF

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2017, 11:13:12 PM »
the PB version on the MFN comp is the one from the 23rd june not the 22

I believe that because I listened to this version billion of times and I know it by heart, it's my fav one.

During the quiet moment (can't check it right now, I think it's during the bridge between the end of the song and TOL, but not sure), you can hear a voice shouting "assise !" (which means "sit down" in french)
of course, a french person could have been attending a gig in Netherlands, but in this case I think he (she) would have shouted it in english, not in french. So I am quite sure that this recording is from France, so from Paris, and it is for 100% sure the same as the MFN comp (except a very little vocal edit)

hope it can help :wave

I can't find it on YT (only 22nd is avalaibale) but I listened again to my version :

I have a bootleg named "Paris 23-06-1983" which contains the PB version 100% the same as on the MFN comp, and it's different form the 22nd version
My Portobello Belle file is 17:23 long because it contains the TOL intro

at 17:00 on the left channel you can clearly hear a french voice shouting "assise !" for the 2nd time (the 1st time is at 16:53)
of course, it's not a  100% proof, but at the beginning I hear some voices that sound french (even if I can't understand exactly what they say)
That's why I believe this recording is from Paris, and as it's exactly the same as the MFN comp...I guess the note on the booklet is right : it's from Paris june 1983

OfflineBrunno Nunes- (Universo Dire Straits)

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2017, 11:59:56 PM »
the PB version on the MFN comp is the one from the 23rd june not the 22

I believe that because I listened to this version billion of times and I know it by heart, it's my fav one.

During the quiet moment (can't check it right now, I think it's during the bridge between the end of the song and TOL, but not sure), you can hear a voice shouting "assise !" (which means "sit down" in french)
of course, a french person could have been attending a gig in Netherlands, but in this case I think he (she) would have shouted it in english, not in french. So I am quite sure that this recording is from France, so from Paris, and it is for 100% sure the same as the MFN comp (except a very little vocal edit)

hope it can help :wave

I can't find it on YT (only 22nd is avalaibale) but I listened again to my version :

I have a bootleg named "Paris 23-06-1983" which contains the PB version 100% the same as on the MFN comp, and it's different form the 22nd version
My Portobello Belle file is 17:23 long because it contains the TOL intro

at 17:00 on the left channel you can clearly hear a french voice shouting "assise !" for the 2nd time (the 1st time is at 16:53)
of course, it's not a  100% proof, but at the beginning I hear some voices that sound french (even if I can't understand exactly what they say)
That's why I believe this recording is from Paris, and as it's exactly the same as the MFN comp...I guess the note on the booklet is right : it's from Paris june 1983


I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree, you are not considering two very important and revealing aspects of this bootleg.

1- The presence of Tulpen uit Amsterdam at the end of the concert. Do you really believe that they will play this song in Paris or in any country other than Holland? The only two bootlegs we have from DS in the Netherlands during the LOG tour, they played Tulpen uit Amsterdam just before the song Going home, the same way as with this bootleg 23/06/83.

2- The introduction of Twistting By The Poll, is another crucial pin to be able to identify that it is not the recording of the day 22/06/1983 and nor 23/06/1983, because in this case, we have the introduction Being made with a small session with Terry, very characteristic in this tour and that was only made until 06/21/83. Any bootleg after Paris 6/21/83 does not contain this introduction with Terry, can check from the version of Twistting By The Poll the day 06/22/83, it starts with studio intorduction, and so on until the end Of the tour.


I also, like you, have a bootleg with the title Paris 1983 (06/23/83), which is the same recording we are talking about, I believed for a long time that it was correct, until I downloaded the correct version of Paris 1983 23/06/83) and found that it is completely different from what I had, and it was there that I noticed that I had these nuances that I had not realized before, like Tulpen uit Amsterdam and the introduction of Twistting By The Poll, simply do not fit with The date and place Paris 1983 (23/06/83), nor Paris 22/06/1983.

Fraternally!
 :wave
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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2017, 07:50:20 AM »
Come on, it's  Twisting By The Pool,  not Twistting By The Poll.... hurts my eyes more than any wrong labelled bootleg could ever do...

LE

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2017, 02:36:48 PM »
Come on, it's  Twisting By The Pool,  not Twistting By The Poll.... hurts my eyes more than any wrong labelled bootleg could ever do...

LE

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OfflineJF

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 03:11:41 PM »
the PB version on the MFN comp is the one from the 23rd june not the 22

I believe that because I listened to this version billion of times and I know it by heart, it's my fav one.

During the quiet moment (can't check it right now, I think it's during the bridge between the end of the song and TOL, but not sure), you can hear a voice shouting "assise !" (which means "sit down" in french)
of course, a french person could have been attending a gig in Netherlands, but in this case I think he (she) would have shouted it in english, not in french. So I am quite sure that this recording is from France, so from Paris, and it is for 100% sure the same as the MFN comp (except a very little vocal edit)

hope it can help :wave

I can't find it on YT (only 22nd is avalaibale) but I listened again to my version :

I have a bootleg named "Paris 23-06-1983" which contains the PB version 100% the same as on the MFN comp, and it's different form the 22nd version
My Portobello Belle file is 17:23 long because it contains the TOL intro

at 17:00 on the left channel you can clearly hear a french voice shouting "assise !" for the 2nd time (the 1st time is at 16:53)
of course, it's not a  100% proof, but at the beginning I hear some voices that sound french (even if I can't understand exactly what they say)
That's why I believe this recording is from Paris, and as it's exactly the same as the MFN comp...I guess the note on the booklet is right : it's from Paris june 1983


I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree, you are not considering two very important and revealing aspects of this bootleg.

1- The presence of Tulpen uit Amsterdam at the end of the concert. Do you really believe that they will play this song in Paris or in any country other than Holland? The only two bootlegs we have from DS in the Netherlands during the LOG tour, they played Tulpen uit Amsterdam just before the song Going home, the same way as with this bootleg 23/06/83.

2- The introduction of Twistting By The Poll, is another crucial pin to be able to identify that it is not the recording of the day 22/06/1983 and nor 23/06/1983, because in this case, we have the introduction Being made with a small session with Terry, very characteristic in this tour and that was only made until 06/21/83. Any bootleg after Paris 6/21/83 does not contain this introduction with Terry, can check from the version of Twistting By The Poll the day 06/22/83, it starts with studio intorduction, and so on until the end Of the tour.


I also, like you, have a bootleg with the title Paris 1983 (06/23/83), which is the same recording we are talking about, I believed for a long time that it was correct, until I downloaded the correct version of Paris 1983 23/06/83) and found that it is completely different from what I had, and it was there that I noticed that I had these nuances that I had not realized before, like Tulpen uit Amsterdam and the introduction of Twistting By The Poll, simply do not fit with The date and place Paris 1983 (23/06/83), nor Paris 22/06/1983.

Fraternally!
 :wave



ok maybe you're right, but I find strange to hear such distinctive french voices in a dutch audience, at a time it wasn't so easy to travel than today.

that said, I am talking only about PB, but  not the rest of the concert, I have to check it out, because I don't remember this tulip in amsterdam song.

2 other clues :
1) I remember reading in an itw that Mark was very self-involved in the MFN comp, for example, he did the TR and Twisting remixes. So I would guess that the information on the booklet is "correct" and "true"
2) To me, this recording labelled as paris 22-06-83 always sounded "soundboard" to me, not "audience". all instruments are clearly audibles. If so, that would mean that this recording comes from a pro recording made by the band, and it would fit with the fact that gigs in june were recorded, a month before hammersmsith nights, in order to release the forthcomming Alchemy album next year. Thus, the Paris recording and the version in MFN comp would came from the same original source.

anyway thanks for your investigations  :wave  this PB version is my all time fav one, and if one day you find the exact date (with proof ;)) it will make may day for sure :thumbsup

OfflineBrunno Nunes- (Universo Dire Straits)

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 06:14:54 PM »



[/quote]

ok maybe you're right, but I find strange to hear such distinctive french voices in a dutch audience, at a time it wasn't so easy to travel than today.

that said, I am talking only about PB, but  not the rest of the concert, I have to check it out, because I don't remember this tulip in amsterdam song.

2 other clues :
1) I remember reading in an itw that Mark was very self-involved in the MFN comp, for example, he did the TR and Twisting remixes. So I would guess that the information on the booklet is "correct" and "true"
2) To me, this recording labelled as paris 22-06-83 always sounded "soundboard" to me, not "audience". all instruments are clearly audibles. If so, that would mean that this recording comes from a pro recording made by the band, and it would fit with the fact that gigs in june were recorded, a month before hammersmsith nights, in order to release the forthcomming Alchemy album next year. Thus, the Paris recording and the version in MFN comp would came from the same original source.

anyway thanks for your investigations  :wave  this PB version is my all time fav one, and if one day you find the exact date (with proof ;)) it will make may day for sure :thumbsup

[/quote]

There is no information in the booklet of the LP or the CD of the MFN collection, informing the place where this recording of Portobello Belle was made, the only information is this: (June 1983), nothing more!

 Sorry for the frankness, but the French voices in the dutch audience is an irrelevant aspect, since it could be merely a tourist fan, or someone who knows how to speak French and could be with other French.

Another point, you are focusing only on the song Portobello Belle, is leaving aside a general analysis of bootleg, especially the facts that I highlighted as the format of the introduction of Twisting by the Poll with Terry and the presence of the song, Tulpen uit Amsterdam, in the End of the show, this in itself discards the possibility of this show being in Paris.

I even agree that the fact that gigs in june were recorded, a month before hammersmsith nights, in order to release the forthcomming Alchemy album next year, but the recording of Portobello Belle present in the 1988 compilation is not in Paris due to the facts above Which I pointed out, was certainly in the Netherlands, just look at the facts I pointed out.

The fact that all instruments are clearly audible in this bootleg is an interesting aspect, but there are others of audience bootlegs with excellent recording quality, Live in Vienna 1983- 18.05.83 is a great example.


Anyway, I have no doubt that this bootleg that contains this version of Portobello Belle is one of the nights in Holland and I wonder if some of these shows in June 1983 was filmed would be very shocking if one day something like that is released, at least , The Alchemy in full, no cuts would be glorious!
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Offlinebinone

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 06:48:08 PM »
The recorder, according to the info is Richard Le besnerais, an audio engineer at that time. He has an FB page: https://www.facebook.com/richard.lebesnerais?fref=ts

I asked if he remembers something.

OfflineBrunno Nunes- (Universo Dire Straits)

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Re: Deciphering an enigma- Bootleg "Paris 22/06/1983 (version 1)"
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 07:48:58 PM »
The recorder, according to the info is Richard Le besnerais, an audio engineer at that time. He has an FB page: https://www.facebook.com/richard.lebesnerais?fref=ts

I asked if he remembers something.

Dear Binone, where is this information that Richard Le besnerais is the audio engineer at that time and was involved in the album MFN-1988 and specifically in Portobello Belle-live?
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