Manu Katche speaks about working with MK

[qjamesfloyd]

We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in there life? I know I have, the difference is I didn't do it in front of the entire world. I am sure after putting Dire Straits to bed and going solo made Mark into a different person, in a good way, and I am sure his personal life improved greatly after marrying Kitty, who has turned out to be the love of his life. He went to Nashville and came back with the core musicians that formed his solo band for the best part of 30 years, the people who have a long recording history with many artists, they didn't have to play with Mark, they clearly wanted to, and they would not have stuck with him this long if he was still not easy to get along with!! why would they? Also, the like of Chet Atkins and Emmylou Harris have only ever had good things to say about it him, so, some people clash for whatever reason, but Mark has found the people who he likes to be around in his personal and professional life, so, that's great for him.

[Robson]

We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in there life? I know I have, the difference is I didn't do it in front of the entire world. I am sure after putting Dire Straits to bed and going solo made Mark into a different person, in a good way, and I am sure his personal life improved greatly after marrying Kitty, who has turned out to be the love of his life. He went to Nashville and came back with the core musicians that formed his solo band for the best part of 30 years, the people who have a long recording history with many artists, they didn't have to play with Mark, they clearly wanted to, and they would not have stuck with him this long if he was still not easy to get along with!! why would they? Also, the like of Chet Atkins and Emmylou Harris have only ever had good things to say about it him, so, some people clash for whatever reason, but Mark has found the people who he likes to be around in his personal and professional life, so, that's great for him.

Exactly. I wrote about this in another thread. Since 1996, you could say he has a permanent band. And many songs with other artists.

[TJ]

I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.

Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.

No offense, but what makes you think you have any basis for this to be true?  Mark's current bandmates claim that he's all sunshine and rainbows nowadays, but during the DS era he had a clearly established reputation as a control freak, and we have had multiple first-person accounts here on this board, either in person or in published interviews, attesting to the fact that Mark was basically insufferable around the time of OES recording and tour.  Citing Van Morrison and Chuck Berry as "difficult" doesn't exclude Mark from that category.  Claiming this was somehow "Manu's problem" seems like a combination of rank speculation, wishful thinking and hero worship. 

[quizzaciously]

I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.

Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.

No offense, but what makes you think you have any basis for this to be true?  Mark's current bandmates claim that he's all sunshine and rainbows nowadays, but during the DS era he had a clearly established reputation as a control freak, and we have had multiple first-person accounts here on this board, either in person or in published interviews, attesting to the fact that Mark was basically insufferable around the time of OES recording and tour.  Citing Van Morrison and Chuck Berry as "difficult" doesn't exclude Mark from that category.  Claiming this was somehow "Manu's problem" seems like a combination of rank speculation, wishful thinking and hero worship.

Honestly, I just don't see the point of defending "the dark side of MK", so I do the next best thing and act as a devil's advocate. Amazing songs were written by a visionary artist and recorded perfectly by brilliant professional musicians and engineers, and a giant tour was executed without a single missed date, making millions of people happy, including myself (I've killed my DVD copy of On The Night by playing it too much).

When I see all these interviews claiming MK was difficult to work with, blah, blah, blah, I cringe like crazy. Nobody seems to feel empathy towards Knopfler and focuses all their attention on his "victims" by grouping whom you can form a chamber orchestra, it seems. I'm a big fan of this thing called "result", and if the result is this great, the proverbial evil side of Mark doesn't impress me at all.

From Joop de Korte's interview, we learned that Mark is the kind of guy who throws away the clothes he just recorded a live album with, and unfortunately, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and you can't please everybody. I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable. Maybe because I'm just a bit ruthless and cynical myself, but what I'm interested in the most is the result.

[the visitor]

I think MKs music was better when he was a more of a control freak.  OES sounds like it went too far though and there was an arrogance in approach. Being a control freak also doesn't mean he was good to work with... from Manu's accounts (of which I've also heard a different earlier interview) the studio vibes were BAD on that day. In my experience as someone who has put out records on a very small scale, that atmosphere doesn't lead to a good outcome. The fact that Manu still pulled off the job shows what kind of league he is in as a player.

MKs solo band might not complain, but he seems to hold them in some kind of reverance as mainly stateside musicians with country roots of some kind : probably because they are also so adaptable, and let's not forget they all started of from the same position... as hired sidemen rather than Dire Straits which was band mates and eventual fill in hires.

Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail. 

[quizzaciously]

I think MKs music was better when he was a more of a control freak.  OES sounds like it went too far though and there was an arrogance in approach. Being a control freak also doesn't mean he was good to work with... from Manu's accounts (of which I've also heard a different earlier interview) the studio vibes were BAD on that day. In my experience as someone who has put out records on a very small scale, that atmosphere doesn't lead to a good outcome. The fact that Manu still pulled off the job shows what kind of league he is in as a player.

MKs solo band might not complain, but he seems to hold them in some kind of reverance as mainly stateside musicians with country roots of some kind : probably because they are also so adaptable, and let's not forget they all started of from the same position... as hired sidemen rather than Dire Straits which was band mates and eventual fill in hires.

Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.

I agree 100% that you achieve a better result by being a control freak, also known as a perfectionist, not to be confused with a micromanager. I don't think that a tidy and cosy atmosphere in a creative environment guarantees a great result, though. Sometimes, it guarantees only the lack of the result as everybody's too chill and relaxed. There's a balance to these things, and certainly, this balance was compromised at this time because of all that was happening in M's life.

Another thing that I feel is more important than the result is how you deal with your mistakes. As you can be a control freak only for so long, and it really wears off your mind and nerves, so instead of being a control freak all the time, just hire a band consisting of people with 500 years of combined playing experience. You simply won't ever need to be a control freak in this situation. There were no more Dire Straits after OES, which means all the lessons have been learned.

[Jules]

And FWIW, I always felt like Planet was the hardest song to pull off on the entire tour.
It's very slow, very long. The song is based around a synth loop (Korg Wavestation) that we all had to keep in time with. Not easy with 9 people on a very large stadium stage.
Heavy Fuel was probably the easiest song to play (for me). My style is very different to Manu. He is at home with that kind of Planet groove, I'm more at home with the straight ahead rock of Heavy Fuel.

For me, Heavy fuel drumming doesn't sound like Jeff or Manu. It's so close to hard rock that I always thought probably Terry would had been better for that track, but being a Toto fan and thinking about the "Kingdom of desire" record, probably Jeff was also better to that track than Manu, but he did a great job, as expected from someone like him, I'm a big Gabriel fan!.

Also your playing on that track live was excellent, I even dare to day that I prefer your playing than Manu (which is excellent too, of course), as you clearly nail the song in every bit. I always wondered if the intro was your idea or suggested by Mark, as if I remember well, during the first gigs, the song started more similar to the original version in the record and changed after.

[Jules]

And FWIW, I always felt like Planet was the hardest song to pull off on the entire tour.
It's very slow, very long. The song is based around a synth loop (Korg Wavestation) that we all had to keep in time with. Not easy with 9 people on a very large stadium stage.
Heavy Fuel was probably the easiest song to play (for me). My style is very different to Manu. He is at home with that kind of Planet groove, I'm more at home with the straight ahead rock of Heavy Fuel.

Regarding Planet, I remember reading at the time a Manu interview where he said he was quite nervous when recording this track and played it the wrong way, something like the band was playing 4/4 but he played it 3/4 and MK loved that as it was unusual and great. I always played drums by ear as I can't read music and never studied music either, but I would say tha the song has both rythms:

from 3.35 to 4.30 has a beat with a lot of toms that I would say would be that 3/4 rythm

from 5.28 to the end of the song sounds to me like a more 4/4 straight beat



Sorry for any unaccuracy in what I wrote, as I said I don't read music as I never studied from an academy point of view. Always played by ear.

[Chris W]

Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.

Err, like that is an excuse? Yes, a few artists have a bad reputation for being difficult, often unreasonable. You would hope Mark wouldn't be in that category. Certainly in the late 80's and early 90's he was. that was 90% of the reason I was reluctant to take on the tour.
Bullying is bullying and it is never OK.

[Chris W]

From Joop de Korte's interview, we learned that Mark is the kind of guy who throws away the clothes he just recorded a live album with, and unfortunately, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and you can't please everybody. I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable. Maybe because I'm just a bit ruthless and cynical myself, but what I'm interested in the most is the result.

If you don't see the point in 'defending the dark side of Mark' why are you always doing it?
You, as much as anyone, perpetuate these arguments.
I want to highlight one major thing. You weren't there, let alone ever worked with Mark in person. So why 'contradict', why speculate about stuff you know nothing about? It just dismisses and contradicts the true facts as expressed by the people who KNOW the facts - like Manu (and me).

[Chris W]

We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in their life?

I got divorced against my will in the mid-90's. I was devastated and in a dark place for years, but day to day I treated people around me with respect.
I gave up drums after the OES tour (that tells you something).
I worked for ten years in film and tv and you won't find anyone who says I was a bully, difficult to be around or ever unreasonable.

[Chris W]

from 3.35 to 4.30 has a beat with a lot of toms that I would say would be that 3/4 rythm

from 5.28 to the end of the song sounds to me like a more 4/4 straight beat

It's in 4/4 throughout. The section you are pointing to is Manu's signature style. The rolling off beat toms and snare are what he brought to Peter Gabriel's music.

[Chris W]

Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.

Yep, and you could say the same thing about dumping Pick.

[dustyvalentino]

Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[quizzaciously]

Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Hey Dusty, I don't know what you're talking about. Whataboutism is when you are defending your opinion by asking "what about" instead of providing an argument. I wasn't arguing. I was just curious: if people call Mark difficult to work with, how are they gonna call Van Morrison? A nightmare to work with? Relax, people, it's just a forum.