Hi All
I don't want to get into a protracted back and forth on this topic so briefly just a few points picking up with Brunno’s …..
Back to the original thread, I was thinking of examples of songs where you can hear the change prominently in Pick's approach to drumming. Single Handed Sailor is a good example I think:
1979 - Rockpalast. A pretty much replicate version of the version that features on the album, delicate drums from Pick:
https://youtu.be/E36JaBiYI0g?si=GCaANltT5Mi_s3DF
Move forward to Boston 1980 and from the word go you have a straight, and harder 4 4 beat kicking off the song and then been backed, presumably by Joop, on tambourine.
https://youtu.be/yhdMvUZ8KBc?si=9aRaWxx92L6-3Qn2
Note also the addition of keys from Alan.
Very interesting comparison!
... so many differences between the two versions. This is a song that got many different ways to be played, in the Boston one - apart from keyboards - there are many differences in the way Mark plays the guitar, the rhythm, and also in the vocal part.
Same as Boston is the New York version, same tour:
It's true!
Despite having three original members in the band (Mark, John, and Pick), in 1980/81 they were distancing themselves from Dire Straits' live sound of 1978/1979, and Ed brought a perspective that might go unnoticed, the type of audience the band was beginning to play for frequently, along with the new sound, the band experimenting with new arrangements, inevitably took them to new musical horizons. Songs like "Telegraph Road" and the ending of "Private Investigations" that they had developed for the end of "News" live, were created during this tour.
Pick's contribution to the development of the live songs was fundamental. It's very interesting to see where these songs came from between 77/78 and how they arrived in 80/81, especially OUATITW and SOS (the only survivors of the first two albums that made it to the LOG tour 82/83, along with PB). Pick indirectly passed the baton to Terry from 1982 onwards, and he continued to bring a new dimension, certainly more appropriate for the band's moment. I believe that the very direction the band was taking made it impossible to include songs like "Southbound Again," "In The Gallery," "Lions," "News," "Skateaway," and "Single Handed Sailor." (I never understood why "Lady Writer" didn't make it past 79, since it was the big hit from the second album.) Obviously, there wasn't room for new arrangements for so many songs, so they were left out, a shame that many of them were forever.
This period with Pick and Alan in the band is intriguing, to say the least. I like to observe the elements that make up this transition from the band's live performance between 1978/1979 (a pub rock band) to 1980/1981 (a rock and roll orchestra). I think this hasn't been fully explored among us on the forum yet. Beyond this forum (a space for avid fans), there's much more talk about success, especially BIA's, this somewhat overshadows other interesting aspects of the band, such as this transition to a rock and roll orchestra (as Mark often referred to it during this period in the 1980s and 1981s).
I didn't express myself very well …..yes. The audience and the band grew “in tandem” as we say here( UK) . Each fed the other and in any LIVE performance that is everything. In DS case it's a major reason the songs got longer, arrangements changed and the WAY each musician performed developed dramatically . I won't cite examples its obvious and it keeps things interesting both for the players and the listeners.
"Lady Writer" was NOT a “big hit” anywhere which is a different topic.
It was an “OK “ hit and failed completely in the US. Average song = average response, the audience knows.
The transition you refer to was greatly influenced by David’s departure and the addition of Hal and Alan, not least because it levelled up the standard of musicianship within the group so that those two players were way more equal to Mark and Pick .
I rate Pick as being M’s equal on their respective instruments AT THAT POINT, then they went off in different directions.
MM represented the breakaway from the pub rock approach and a HUGE expansion and change in the audiences we were getting eg younger in Europe, older in USA ( I'm generalising).
DS became a mainstream pop group (rock for those who prefer), a British Springsteen effect.
I always considered the "On Location" tour as the most interesting one as it is when the band evolved from the early Straits original sound to the rock stars band that would be in the following years, the keyboards arrangements that made the songs longer, the new dynamics on rythmic guitar, the addition of Joop de Korte on percussion... maybe it's not the best era because it was very experimental, but for that reason is the most interesting to me.
Correct as per above .
By the way Joop just did his bit, unasked and unpaid, hidden behind the curtain!
I'm lost. What questions does Ed answer? 
Previously I would take the time (and it does take quite a while) cutting and pasting the original posts in with Ed's answers.
On this occasion, Ed told me not to bother doing that.
And I'm not going to argue with Ed Bicknell, people have ended up at the bottom of the Thames for less 
And some have ended up in Alan Clark’s “band”.
The only composer I can think of who wrote FOR his musicians was Duke Ellington.
I'm pretty sure U2 (Bono and Edge) write for the other component parts (Larry Mullen, Adam Clayton).
Classically if you don't want to consider the sound of your musicians (in a band, like The police), you do a solo album.
I think there are many more examples :
- Townshend writes and compsoe for Daltrey's vocie, Entwistle's bass, and Moon's drumming
- Robertson wrote and composed for all The Band members
- Lennon and Macca wrote songs fo Ringo singing, and of course for his unique drumming
- I think that Jagger and Richard had Watt's drumming in head while composing
- in all prog bands like Floyd, Genesis , yes... teh writer/composer think obivisoulsy to the other musicians when he has a new song
just my two cents
Of course you are correct, I had Ellington in mind because our cat is called Duke.
You’ve raised a thought I've never had before…how much were Mark’s songs influenced by the band set up at the time ?
Personal view…VERY LITTLE IF AT ALL, especially after DS and C.
He didn't write FOR them, more they were tools to get them to where he had the material in his head. DS was ALWAYS a VEHICLE for his songs , not a “band” like the Stones or Gerry and The Pacemakers.
There you go…….a new debate for you.
And I have a story not for here which answers whatever you come up with if you bother.
quote from Ed : "The Oldfield book is a reason for The Inquisition book burning."
strange because it's said on the back cover that the book was "validated" by the band, and especially by Mark as they were students together
I know I am a litlle bit naive, but for long years I always took this book as the DS bible
"I know I am a litlle bit naive, but for long years I always took this book as the DS bible"
Me too.
quote from Ed : "The Oldfield book is a reason for The Inquisition book burning."
strange because it's said on the back cover that the book was "validated" by the band, and especially by Mark as they were students together
I know I am a litlle bit naive, but for long years I always took this book as the DS bible
I think it also says it was written in cooperation with the band, and the book is full of sentences theorically said by the musicians themselves, I guess also by Ed (I'm talking by memory), maybe if Ed reads this could elaborate a little bit more why this book is that bad. The one by Myles Palmer is pretty obvious why it is crap.
This leaves us with the John Illsley's book as the more accurate, which makes it very much needed that Ed writes his own!
That book is ancient just like my underwear.
We gave him huge access because he was a “mate” of M’s but not for long and I think he scribbled for Melody Maker, major UK music paper then.
BIG mistake on our part.
What he produced…and I've not read it in years…...YEARS….. was mediocre esp for a “music writer”.
What it said on the cover was disingenuous in the extreme but too late to change..a marketing ploy as publishers do, NOT put there by us.
I doubt any of the band read it. I know MK didn't. I'm not even sure he knew it was out there. Too busy.
It’s a real shame that in the ABSENCE OF ANYTHING ELSE it became a “Bible”.
It was more like a poor comic with badly drawn characters, “ Viz” for 5 year olds, but humourless.
Full of factual errors, quotes out of context, stuff put in to sell copies, poorly written, exploitative.
“ Written in co operation”….really?
When?
How?
No one sat with him and “ co operated ” that I remember, I certainly didn’t.
His “friendship” with MK morphed into a "co operation". WTF!
He had one bit of luck, accidentally being at that hotel jam in LA with Dylan who was trying ( and failed) to impress two groupies who’d just appeared drawn by my Old Spice after shave and Rambling’s deodorant. .
That was a weird evening of exotic smells and cranky strumming .
Still, Oldfield did get the hotel right which JI did not.
You should have read the Palmer draft I was sent …….unbelievable rubbish. Couldn’t even spell correctly or paragraph. BIG row with publisher and then I learned what a good editor does. REWRITE.
I've also always considered Oldfield's book a reference for information, as the cover stated that it was produced with the band's participation. This always lent credibility. I'd like to know Ed's reasons for disregarding this book.
I have no doubt that the best book about Dire Straits would be the one Ed Bicknell wrote.
It would.
I always considered the "On Location" tour as the most interesting one as it is when the band evolved from the early Straits original sound to the rock stars band that would be in the following years, the keyboards arrangements that made the songs longer, the new dynamics on rythmic guitar, the addition of Joop de Korte on percussion... maybe it's not the best era because it was very experimental, but for that reason is the most interesting to me.
Without a doubt, this tour has a very curious aura. This was the tour that surprised me the most with the format of the songs; it was the "missing link period" between the raw sound of the early days and the perfection of Alchemy. Experimenting with new sounds and new arrangements, as well as new songs, a pre-Log version of Telegraph Road.
The only thing missing from this tour is that Mark hadn't yet found the ideal tone for his Schecters, something that would only happen in 1982/1983 on the LOG tour.
“Missing link”! CLASSIC.
The keyboards changed everything and at that point Alan was still ….no! I'm not going there.
Hal was, young, yes, young and in the thrall of his 🤦♀️
I am not qualified to talk about guitars. Or harps. Or pubic lice.
This leaves us with the John Illsley's book as the more accurate, which makes it very much needed that Ed writes his own!
John's book wasn't written by a member of the band either 
LOVE IT! Fucking classic.
- Lennon and Macca wrote songs fo Ringo singing, and of course for his unique drumming
They wrote songs for him to sing no doubt but (and Chris will have a better insight here), it always seemed to me that Ringo was always ready to play the perfect accompaniment to whatever they came up with.
You can see this in Get Back, he's just sitting patiently doing nothing for ages then he springs into life with the perfect beat when PM magics up the song Get Back out of thin air.
Ringo..yes ( “Boys” is a cover ). Great player, exactly right for them AND kept up with their development.
I always considered the "On Location" tour as the most interesting one as it is when the band evolved from the early Straits original sound to the rock stars band that would be in the following years, the keyboards arrangements that made the songs longer, the new dynamics on rythmic guitar, the addition of Joop de Korte on percussion... maybe it's not the best era because it was very experimental, but for that reason is the most interesting to me.
Do you think the band would have retained more elements of its original sound if David hadn't been replaced by Hal, even with the addition of Alan on keyboards? In that sense, what would have added more musically: Hal's dynamism or the sound the brothers create together on stage?
I believe that if David hadn't left the band for these reasons, at least songs like "Lady Writer," "What's the Matter Baby," and "Wild West End" would still be present in their live performances. That beat, rhythm, and groove they developed together, which continued until their last show together at the Rainbow Theatre in December 1979, was something that always fascinated me about the band. I wonder if it could be balanced with the new sound they were developing during this period. The fact is that with David's departure, that sound was lost forever. For me, no song on the first two albums is as brilliant and magical as with the original lineup, certainly because they were created and recorded by them, although each lineup's sound has its own beauty. Sure, I love SOS, OUATITW, Portobello Belle on Alchemy and other tours, but without Pick and David, those songs were always something else.
I always considered the "On Location" tour as the most interesting one as it is when the band evolved from the early Straits original sound to the rock stars band that would be in the following years, the keyboards arrangements that made the songs longer, the new dynamics on rythmic guitar, the addition of Joop de Korte on percussion... maybe it's not the best era because it was very experimental, but for that reason is the most interesting to me.
Do you think the band would have maintained more elements of its original sound if David hadn't been replaced by Hal, even with the addition of Alan on keyboards? In that sense, what would have added more musically: Hal's dynamism or the sound the brothers create together on stage?
Ah. Now we are going DEEP.
I doubt it. It could never have worked that way.
We were fortunate that the change involved both of them ..if David hadn’t left Pick would have ..and musically it meant M had a solid reliable unit behind him he could depend on. .
You never saw the brothers on stage did you?
As I've said before it was quartet with three people in it.
Records were different eg Muff’s input cannot be overstated. Ditto Barry Beckett , not Wexler.
The “groove" came from Pick which once upon a time in the west was what this thread was about 🥁.
His loss was a MUCH greater loss than David's ( not comparable) BUT Terry changed the live dynamic to what it needed to be at that time and kicked them up the arse ( that's NOT a criticism of Pick at all ).
They would have collapsed commercially if those changes hadn’t happened and make no mistake M, J and I were heading for the topper most of the popper most, no time to piss about. This wasn’t some self indulgent hobby , we wanted to be successful. .
I get what you’re saying but live recordings and the first two albums don't tell the whole story, you needed to be in the room.
Anyway, writing about D is making me anxious , I need to evacuate my bowels.
I think Pick was a massive part of the unique sound of Dire Straits in the beginning. To me it was the guitar style, voice of Mark, then the drums. Rhythm guitar and bass could have been anyone.
Obviously I wasn't there for the departure of David and Pick. Usually it is a problem for any band, but I guess Mark was more important than the rest... and the band morphed somewhat seamlessly into other configurations, probably to suit Mark's direction of travel. U2 without The Edge or Larry Mullen? The Police without Stewart Copeland or Andy Summers?
After all the back and forth - I just want to reiterate the point I was actually trying to make.
The songwriting reflects the constituent parts of the band (IMO). And MOSTLY the drummer and their choices are impacted by the songwriting, and anything they are asked to play by the song writer, band leader or producer. You hardly ever plough your own furrow.
It's almost always a collaboration and influenced by events around you.
Hello Chris 🥁
Correct on all points in your first sentence.
Ditto your second sentence.
And you're third.
So I am now redundant and I'm NOT being sarcastic.
The great drummers PLAY THE SONG either organically or because the songwriter or producer wants it that way.
You did exactly that on The Whole of The Moon and the result speaks for itself…Mike Scott and MK would make for an interesting boxing match.
I did send all the previous stuff to Pick who said “ twiddly dee”..I LOVE Pick.
That's it.
I'm done for now.
See you whenever.
The Colonel. NO. Not that one 🤠
