A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: rmarques821 on February 22, 2025, 01:30:09 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPv-0rLDyu4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPv-0rLDyu4)
From 1:03:25
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Nice. Not that I trust medical diagnostic skills, but he clearly suggested that Mark suffers from some degree of bipolar disorder. Interesting thought.
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Genius drummer! I've always loved his work with Gabriel and saw them live together. Didn't he and Mark drink a beer after the session and make amends? It reminds me of the story of Phil Palmer recording the OES outro for hours on countless Strats, and then Mark letting the engineer pick a take, more or less not caring about it. Btw the fill Manu plays at 4:48 - 4:52 is the best part of "Heavy Fuel" imho.
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Nice. Not that I trust medical diagnostic skills, but he clearly suggested that Mark suffers from some degree of bipolar disorder. Interesting thought.
Well this is more of a character description than a diagnostic.
Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
What I am ignoring is what Mark was looking for while recording.
I mean he had something in the head and was failing to get it done the way he wanted to.
Quite an usual thing for a creative person after all.
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Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
Again, I heard about Mark's 'difficult' character long before the OES sessions. Having worked with several big name artists I think it usually has more to do with selling millions of records, surrounding yourself with 'yes men' and thinking you are some kind of supreme being.
The relaunch of Dire Straits was entirely Mark's choice. Even John Illsley was shocked and surprised when the idea came up.
Manu is a world class drummer and it IS unusual for world class musicians to say they were so unhappy on a session they were minutes away from quitting.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPv-0rLDyu4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPv-0rLDyu4)
From 1:03:25
I don’t understand what was Manu’s problem, to be honest. Mark wanted to re-record a “perfectly recorded” drum track, and so what? Do you only re-record mistakes or failed tracks, or what? What if Mark just wanted a different sound? Is this prohibited?
Just from this short piece, I already feel like Manu is somewhat difficult to work with himself. Like, what’s your problem, dude? Just re-record the part, that’s all! We hired you to do that, right? Right? Too many takes? Tell it to actors who can do 100 takes.
And lol, it’s not bipolar, it’s called life. Life is a sine wave, and everyone will feel bad one day and better the other day. When you feel bad, mood swings are to be expected. I’ve been through troubled times in my life (and am currently going through one of those), and I must admit, sometimes (rarely), I wasn’t particularly kind to some people in very particular situations where they might be slightly wrong, and I overreacted. Shit happens!
Yours truly,
Devil’s Mark Knopfler’s advocate
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"Yours truly,
Devil’s Mark Knopfler’s advocate"
:D
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Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
Again, I heard about Mark's 'difficult' character long before the OES sessions. Having worked with several big name artists I think it usually has more to do with selling millions of records, surrounding yourself with 'yes men' and thinking you are some kind of supreme being.
The relaunch of Dire Straits was entirely Mark's choice. Even John Illsley was shocked and surprised when the idea came up.
Manu is a world class drummer and it IS unusual for world class musicians to say they were so unhappy on a session they were minutes away from quitting.
Exactly! I cannot believe many posters still try and doubt or question someone like Manu (or yourself on various other threads to be perfectly honest.) I've also read one or two interviews years back with Manu telling a similar story. In fact this one has a more positive vibe towards Mark!
What people have to also remember is context, and actually above all how Dire Straits/Knopfler helped the certain artist in the future... for example those former band members who have been able to tell their truths/stories without bias:
Kache: The Dire Straits/sessions didn't eleviate Manu... he continued to work with numerous top players... he can be as honest and open as he wants.
Yourself: Same as above in some respects... appreciate you would have been paid fairly well... but if anything as i've read from you in the past, it put you off the stadium / live / band tour set-up. Had you been involved with another band at that time you may have continued and earned more money or respect etc elsewhere and your trajectory could have been different.
Palmer: Top session musician, can be as open as he wants to be
David K: sadly
Musicians who felt an allegiance to Mark or held him key to their own career/success so therefore won't speak negative of him:
Guy: obvious reasons
John I: same as above
Terry Williams: didn't play in any established bands after, in fact he was very humble about being replaced by Omar Hakim during the BIA sessions, bless him. Probably thought that he had won the lottery playing in that huge world tour. Top Rock 'n Roll drummer but not Neil Dorfsman's go-to on the drums.
Hal: Probably earned more money from one of his tv musical compositions than in his time in Dire Straits, so probably sees the DS period as a key stepping stone. In fact i'm sure that i've read articles about this, and of course what with Ed's back-story Hal may have felt a tad embarrassed by it all so he has always come across as positive regarding his time with DS and MK. Let's be honest Mark gave him a chance and Hal took it but went on to be successful in his own right. Talented chap.
Jack Sonni just to add seemed to have had various views about his time with DS and MK. Both positive and sadly negative. God rest his soul.
Look, Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits especially the albums Making Movies, Love Over Gold and Brothers In Arms had a deep influence on me as a kid. I used to mime on my tennis raquet being Mark Knopfler, wearing a headband too. haha! Especially on the deeper cuts like Telegraph Road, Skateaway, It Never Rains, Man's Too Big... and as I grew older and got into slightly heavier music I probably unfairly dismissed the early days with Pick and the more subtle compositions and playing... I loved the On The Night era partly because of Chris's drumming and energy which was the perfect juxtoposition compared with Mark, John who aren't exactly the most liveliest of players. That's partly why I liked Jack Sonni (RIP), Hal, Joop. Also having been in bands (albeit amateur ones) I appreciate that it's not all plain sailing. I nearly quit music because of one particular band mate, and his negativity towards me.
I still appreciate Mark as a songwriter, guitarist and lyricist and i'm sure he has mellowed over time, but I can also imagine how difficult he was to work with. The test of a person is when the going gets tough. Like a football manager if you are winning matches and everything is fine then great but when you start losing that's when difficulties set in. You can still deal with those issues respectfully and lead a team without being a dictator.
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I always wondered if in this alternative version, always called like "demo" (I'm not sure if it's really a demo) that in a bootleg was labeled as recorded in february 1992, is Jeff Porcaro playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtFt1y23Hjc
Manu says Jeff's version had only two or three fills, this one doesn't have as much as Manu's version, but I don't know if that's enough to think this version is Jeff's one or not.
Maybe Ed would remember if he listened to it?
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I don’t understand what was Manu’s problem, to be honest. Mark wanted to re-record a “perfectly recorded” drum track, and so what?
Yeah, you don't understand. The problem Manu had with Mark was during the tracking of 'Planet Of New Orleans'.
Just from this short piece, I already feel like Manu is somewhat difficult to work with himself. Like, what’s your problem, dude? Just re-record the part, that’s all! We hired you to do that, right? Right? Too many takes? Tell it to actors who can do 100 takes.
Again, in desperately defending mark you've got the wrong end of the stick. Manu was not having a great day in the studio. Music is best made with joy and mutual respect right? So he's already experienced some bad vibes, then Mark asks him to re-record a track Porcaro had completed.
He doesn't refuse, he just tells Mark he thinks the Jeff version is perfect. Which is totally legitimate.
In fact when I heard 'Heavy Fuel' I totally thought it was Jeff playing on the track. It is very much different to Manu's usual way of playing.
When I've been on recording sessions and been presented with a song that is opposite to my way of playing I am upfront and honest with the artist and producer.
"You should probably hire someone else for this song". That is called being professional.
Manu is a renowned professional, known for being an amazing drummer and very nice guy.
It's probable he is a little sensitive and mostly worked with people who appreciated his talent and were positive towards him (Sting and Gabriel).
Apparently not Knopfler on this day.
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I always wondered if in this alternative version, always called like "demo" (I'm not sure if it's really a demo) that in a bootleg was labeled as recorded in february 1992, is Jeff Porcaro playing:
The OES version of 'Heavy Fuel' always sounded exactly like Jeff to me. It's a groove and song that are right up Porcaro's street.
I don't know what the problem was. Mark had changed his mind about something on the original recording. Jeff had flown back to America so they had to find someone else to track the drums.
It's weird to me when Manu says he just went 'crazy' on the drum performance. It sounds like a very simple drum performance to me. yes there are some fills but nothing that is out of the ordinary for this kind of sing.
Heavy Fuel is OES' Money For Nothing, but not as good.
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And FWIW, I always felt like Planet was the hardest song to pull off on the entire tour.
It's very slow, very long. The song is based around a synth loop (Korg Wavestation) that we all had to keep in time with. Not easy with 9 people on a very large stadium stage.
Heavy Fuel was probably the easiest song to play (for me). My style is very different to Manu. He is at home with that kind of Planet groove, I'm more at home with the straight ahead rock of Heavy Fuel.
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I still appreciate Mark as a songwriter, guitarist and lyricist and i'm sure he has mellowed over time, but I can also imagine how difficult he was to work with.
I think you hit the nail on the head in just about every way.
It's sobering to watch the various podcasts on Youtube - Pick Withers for example.
The churn of band members, for whatever reason. The lack of members at the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame ceremony.
In my experience, it's usually toxic to exclude band members from album sessions. Props to Terry for doing the BIA tour with good grace after being rejected at the studio sessions.
Look, at the end of the day Mark can be as difficult (maybe unpleasant) as he wants to be. No problem.
It's also OK for people to talk about their experiences and not OK to contradict them based on fandom rather than actually being there.
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Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
Again, I heard about Mark's 'difficult' character long before the OES sessions. Having worked with several big name artists I think it usually has more to do with selling millions of records, surrounding yourself with 'yes men' and thinking you are some kind of supreme being.
The relaunch of Dire Straits was entirely Mark's choice. Even John Illsley was shocked and surprised when the idea came up.
Manu is a world class drummer and it IS unusual for world class musicians to say they were so unhappy on a session they were minutes away from quitting.
Exactly! I cannot believe many posters still try and doubt or question someone like Manu (or yourself on various other threads to be perfectly honest.) I've also read one or two interviews years back with Manu telling a similar story. In fact this one has a more positive vibe towards Mark!
What people have to also remember is context, and actually above all how Dire Straits/Knopfler helped the certain artist in the future... for example those former band members who have been able to tell their truths/stories without bias:
Kache: The Dire Straits/sessions didn't eleviate Manu... he continued to work with numerous top players... he can be as honest and open as he wants.
Yourself: Same as above in some respects... appreciate you would have been paid fairly well... but if anything as i've read from you in the past, it put you off the stadium / live / band tour set-up. Had you been involved with another band at that time you may have continued and earned more money or respect etc elsewhere and your trajectory could have been different.
Palmer: Top session musician, can be as open as he wants to be
David K: sadly
Musicians who felt an allegiance to Mark or held him key to their own career/success so therefore won't speak negative of him:
Guy: obvious reasons
John I: same as above
Terry Williams: didn't play in any established bands after, in fact he was very humble about being replaced by Omar Hakim during the BIA sessions, bless him. Probably thought that he had won the lottery playing in that huge world tour. Top Rock 'n Roll drummer but not Neil Dorfsman's go-to on the drums.
Hal: Probably earned more money from one of his tv musical compositions than in his time in Dire Straits, so probably sees the DS period as a key stepping stone. In fact i'm sure that i've read articles about this, and of course what with Ed's back-story Hal may have felt a tad embarrassed by it all so he has always come across as positive regarding his time with DS and MK. Let's be honest Mark gave him a chance and Hal took it but went on to be successful in his own right. Talented chap.
Jack Sonni just to add seemed to have had various views about his time with DS and MK. Both positive and sadly negative. God rest his soul.
Look, Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits especially the albums Making Movies, Love Over Gold and Brothers In Arms had a deep influence on me as a kid. I used to mime on my tennis raquet being Mark Knopfler, wearing a headband too. haha! Especially on the deeper cuts like Telegraph Road, Skateaway, It Never Rains, Man's Too Big... and as I grew older and got into slightly heavier music I probably unfairly dismissed the early days with Pick and the more subtle compositions and playing... I loved the On The Night era partly because of Chris's drumming and energy which was the perfect juxtoposition compared with Mark, John who aren't exactly the most liveliest of players. That's partly why I liked Jack Sonni (RIP), Hal, Joop. Also having been in bands (albeit amateur ones) I appreciate that it's not all plain sailing. I nearly quit music because of one particular band mate, and his negativity towards me.
I still appreciate Mark as a songwriter, guitarist and lyricist and i'm sure he has mellowed over time, but I can also imagine how difficult he was to work with. The test of a person is when the going gets tough. Like a football manager if you are winning matches and everything is fine then great but when you start losing that's when difficulties set in. You can still deal with those issues respectfully and lead a team without being a dictator.
Absolutely tragic that Terry never really played again. I loved his drumming, and I'm not even talking so much about DS, all those Rockpile (and adjacent) records, Girls Talk for example.
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Yeah, you don't understand. The problem Manu had with Mark was during the tracking of 'Planet Of New Orleans'.
Manu is a renowned professional, known for being an amazing drummer and very nice guy.
It's probable he is a little sensitive and mostly worked with people who appreciated his talent and were positive towards him (Sting and Gabriel).
Apparently not Knopfler on this day.
Of course, I noticed he was talking about one song while listening to a completely different song and describing going "crazy" with it without anything crazy about it at all, which confused everyone, yourself included. I'd say that's a perfect example when, even if you were there, which is your favourite argument, things aren't exactly clear sometimes because you were there 35-ish years ago.
I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.
Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
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We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in there life? I know I have, the difference is I didn't do it in front of the entire world. I am sure after putting Dire Straits to bed and going solo made Mark into a different person, in a good way, and I am sure his personal life improved greatly after marrying Kitty, who has turned out to be the love of his life. He went to Nashville and came back with the core musicians that formed his solo band for the best part of 30 years, the people who have a long recording history with many artists, they didn't have to play with Mark, they clearly wanted to, and they would not have stuck with him this long if he was still not easy to get along with!! why would they? Also, the like of Chet Atkins and Emmylou Harris have only ever had good things to say about it him, so, some people clash for whatever reason, but Mark has found the people who he likes to be around in his personal and professional life, so, that's great for him.
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We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in there life? I know I have, the difference is I didn't do it in front of the entire world. I am sure after putting Dire Straits to bed and going solo made Mark into a different person, in a good way, and I am sure his personal life improved greatly after marrying Kitty, who has turned out to be the love of his life. He went to Nashville and came back with the core musicians that formed his solo band for the best part of 30 years, the people who have a long recording history with many artists, they didn't have to play with Mark, they clearly wanted to, and they would not have stuck with him this long if he was still not easy to get along with!! why would they? Also, the like of Chet Atkins and Emmylou Harris have only ever had good things to say about it him, so, some people clash for whatever reason, but Mark has found the people who he likes to be around in his personal and professional life, so, that's great for him.
Exactly. I wrote about this in another thread. Since 1996, you could say he has a permanent band. And many songs with other artists.
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I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.
Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
No offense, but what makes you think you have any basis for this to be true? Mark's current bandmates claim that he's all sunshine and rainbows nowadays, but during the DS era he had a clearly established reputation as a control freak, and we have had multiple first-person accounts here on this board, either in person or in published interviews, attesting to the fact that Mark was basically insufferable around the time of OES recording and tour. Citing Van Morrison and Chuck Berry as "difficult" doesn't exclude Mark from that category. Claiming this was somehow "Manu's problem" seems like a combination of rank speculation, wishful thinking and hero worship.
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I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.
Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
No offense, but what makes you think you have any basis for this to be true? Mark's current bandmates claim that he's all sunshine and rainbows nowadays, but during the DS era he had a clearly established reputation as a control freak, and we have had multiple first-person accounts here on this board, either in person or in published interviews, attesting to the fact that Mark was basically insufferable around the time of OES recording and tour. Citing Van Morrison and Chuck Berry as "difficult" doesn't exclude Mark from that category. Claiming this was somehow "Manu's problem" seems like a combination of rank speculation, wishful thinking and hero worship.
Honestly, I just don't see the point of defending "the dark side of MK", so I do the next best thing and act as a devil's advocate. Amazing songs were written by a visionary artist and recorded perfectly by brilliant professional musicians and engineers, and a giant tour was executed without a single missed date, making millions of people happy, including myself (I've killed my DVD copy of On The Night by playing it too much).
When I see all these interviews claiming MK was difficult to work with, blah, blah, blah, I cringe like crazy. Nobody seems to feel empathy towards Knopfler and focuses all their attention on his "victims" by grouping whom you can form a chamber orchestra, it seems. I'm a big fan of this thing called "result", and if the result is this great, the proverbial evil side of Mark doesn't impress me at all.
From Joop de Korte's interview, we learned that Mark is the kind of guy who throws away the clothes he just recorded a live album with, and unfortunately, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and you can't please everybody. I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable. Maybe because I'm just a bit ruthless and cynical myself, but what I'm interested in the most is the result.
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I think MKs music was better when he was a more of a control freak. OES sounds like it went too far though and there was an arrogance in approach. Being a control freak also doesn't mean he was good to work with... from Manu's accounts (of which I've also heard a different earlier interview) the studio vibes were BAD on that day. In my experience as someone who has put out records on a very small scale, that atmosphere doesn't lead to a good outcome. The fact that Manu still pulled off the job shows what kind of league he is in as a player.
MKs solo band might not complain, but he seems to hold them in some kind of reverance as mainly stateside musicians with country roots of some kind : probably because they are also so adaptable, and let's not forget they all started of from the same position... as hired sidemen rather than Dire Straits which was band mates and eventual fill in hires.
Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.
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I think MKs music was better when he was a more of a control freak. OES sounds like it went too far though and there was an arrogance in approach. Being a control freak also doesn't mean he was good to work with... from Manu's accounts (of which I've also heard a different earlier interview) the studio vibes were BAD on that day. In my experience as someone who has put out records on a very small scale, that atmosphere doesn't lead to a good outcome. The fact that Manu still pulled off the job shows what kind of league he is in as a player.
MKs solo band might not complain, but he seems to hold them in some kind of reverance as mainly stateside musicians with country roots of some kind : probably because they are also so adaptable, and let's not forget they all started of from the same position... as hired sidemen rather than Dire Straits which was band mates and eventual fill in hires.
Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.
I agree 100% that you achieve a better result by being a control freak, also known as a perfectionist, not to be confused with a micromanager. I don't think that a tidy and cosy atmosphere in a creative environment guarantees a great result, though. Sometimes, it guarantees only the lack of the result as everybody's too chill and relaxed. There's a balance to these things, and certainly, this balance was compromised at this time because of all that was happening in M's life.
Another thing that I feel is more important than the result is how you deal with your mistakes. As you can be a control freak only for so long, and it really wears off your mind and nerves, so instead of being a control freak all the time, just hire a band consisting of people with 500 years of combined playing experience. You simply won't ever need to be a control freak in this situation. There were no more Dire Straits after OES, which means all the lessons have been learned.
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And FWIW, I always felt like Planet was the hardest song to pull off on the entire tour.
It's very slow, very long. The song is based around a synth loop (Korg Wavestation) that we all had to keep in time with. Not easy with 9 people on a very large stadium stage.
Heavy Fuel was probably the easiest song to play (for me). My style is very different to Manu. He is at home with that kind of Planet groove, I'm more at home with the straight ahead rock of Heavy Fuel.
For me, Heavy fuel drumming doesn't sound like Jeff or Manu. It's so close to hard rock that I always thought probably Terry would had been better for that track, but being a Toto fan and thinking about the "Kingdom of desire" record, probably Jeff was also better to that track than Manu, but he did a great job, as expected from someone like him, I'm a big Gabriel fan!.
Also your playing on that track live was excellent, I even dare to day that I prefer your playing than Manu (which is excellent too, of course), as you clearly nail the song in every bit. I always wondered if the intro was your idea or suggested by Mark, as if I remember well, during the first gigs, the song started more similar to the original version in the record and changed after.
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And FWIW, I always felt like Planet was the hardest song to pull off on the entire tour.
It's very slow, very long. The song is based around a synth loop (Korg Wavestation) that we all had to keep in time with. Not easy with 9 people on a very large stadium stage.
Heavy Fuel was probably the easiest song to play (for me). My style is very different to Manu. He is at home with that kind of Planet groove, I'm more at home with the straight ahead rock of Heavy Fuel.
Regarding Planet, I remember reading at the time a Manu interview where he said he was quite nervous when recording this track and played it the wrong way, something like the band was playing 4/4 but he played it 3/4 and MK loved that as it was unusual and great. I always played drums by ear as I can't read music and never studied music either, but I would say tha the song has both rythms:
from 3.35 to 4.30 has a beat with a lot of toms that I would say would be that 3/4 rythm
from 5.28 to the end of the song sounds to me like a more 4/4 straight beat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE4IIhheWkM
Sorry for any unaccuracy in what I wrote, as I said I don't read music as I never studied from an academy point of view. Always played by ear.
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Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
Err, like that is an excuse? Yes, a few artists have a bad reputation for being difficult, often unreasonable. You would hope Mark wouldn't be in that category. Certainly in the late 80's and early 90's he was. that was 90% of the reason I was reluctant to take on the tour.
Bullying is bullying and it is never OK.
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From Joop de Korte's interview, we learned that Mark is the kind of guy who throws away the clothes he just recorded a live album with, and unfortunately, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and you can't please everybody. I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable. Maybe because I'm just a bit ruthless and cynical myself, but what I'm interested in the most is the result.
If you don't see the point in 'defending the dark side of Mark' why are you always doing it?
You, as much as anyone, perpetuate these arguments.
I want to highlight one major thing. You weren't there, let alone ever worked with Mark in person. So why 'contradict', why speculate about stuff you know nothing about? It just dismisses and contradicts the true facts as expressed by the people who KNOW the facts - like Manu (and me).
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We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in their life?
I got divorced against my will in the mid-90's. I was devastated and in a dark place for years, but day to day I treated people around me with respect.
I gave up drums after the OES tour (that tells you something).
I worked for ten years in film and tv and you won't find anyone who says I was a bully, difficult to be around or ever unreasonable.
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from 3.35 to 4.30 has a beat with a lot of toms that I would say would be that 3/4 rythm
from 5.28 to the end of the song sounds to me like a more 4/4 straight beat
It's in 4/4 throughout. The section you are pointing to is Manu's signature style. The rolling off beat toms and snare are what he brought to Peter Gabriel's music.
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Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.
Yep, and you could say the same thing about dumping Pick.
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Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
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Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Hey Dusty, I don't know what you're talking about. Whataboutism is when you are defending your opinion by asking "what about" instead of providing an argument. I wasn't arguing. I was just curious: if people call Mark difficult to work with, how are they gonna call Van Morrison? A nightmare to work with? :lol Relax, people, it's just a forum.
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You are always arguing...
But anyway, yes, obviously Van Morrison has a very bad reputation amongst musicians.
It's like saying if you don't like Jack the Ripper what do you say about Vlad The Impaler?
It's just silly....and of course reaching for the most fanciful excuses to explain bullying and bad behaviour.
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We should come up with a top 10 list of musicians who have a reputation for being tossers and see if MK would get on it.
Van M
Ginger Baker
Chuck Berry
Lou Reed
(I've actually queued to get autographs from both Chuck and Lou after shows and they were both fine).
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Roger Waters.
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Bob Dylan.
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Sure....but that isn't the point.
I don't really want to start a negative discussion as a thing in of itself.
When people say something didn't happen, or if it did it was justified, I often jump in to correct the facts.
When people claim Manu wasn't a good enough drummer, or was a having a bad day himself.....I have to defend the guy, not as an emotion, but based on the facts as experienced by more than one other drummer.
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You are always arguing...
But anyway, yes, obviously Van Morrison has a very bad reputation amongst musicians.
It's like saying if you don't like Jack the Ripper what do you say about Vlad The Impaler?
It's just silly....and of course reaching for the most fanciful excuses to explain bullying and bad behaviour.
Dear Chris, I'm not arguing, and somehow, you always find ways to stab me with your umbrella. Years go by, and I'm still waiting for the moment when Chris will finally say at least a single nice word about me ;D Who's bullying?
But jokes aside, seriously, there are no winners on discussion forums, there are only survivors. There's no need to be so defensive of our opinions, I guess, let alone you can't "draw the line" under something, as you've said in the "grumpy artists" thread.
One of my favourite phrases that was used on one of the Soviet posters during WWII was something like "do your revenge on the workbench", meaning if you feel injustice, put the energy into your work instead of wasting it on something else. Let's drink to turn our negativity into something positive.
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Cilla Black (big pop star in the 60s) was an awful person by multiple accounts.
Ed mentioned that Gerry Rafferty was difficult to work with but an alcoholic an undiagnosed bipolar.
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Cilla Black (big pop star in the 60s) was an awful person by multiple accounts.
Ed mentioned that Gerry Rafferty was difficult to work with but an alcoholic an undiagnosed bipolar.
I guess quite a ton of artists are difficult to work with, probably most of them, and that's actually to be expected. As many of you know, the average intelligence level of human beings is pretty low, so I wouldn't expect everybody to act as ladies and gentlemen, especially people with a lot of money and power. In fact, in most cases, money and fame will just show you what this person was all about, it doesn't change a person.
And in another act of defending Mark, you don't need to be Einstein to know it wasn't money or fame that turned Mark into a "bully", the guy just got haunted by bad luck.
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I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable.
I guess English isn't your first language.
You claim not to be dismissing 'the victims', you claim not to be arguing with the facts.
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I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable.
I guess English isn't your first language.
You claim not to be dismissing 'the victims', you claim not to be arguing with the facts.
I'm not claiming anything. I'm just having fun on a fan forum while enjoying some pineapple juice. There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who think words on a fan forum are set in stone and will reverberate for eternity. And those who think it's a platform for sharing opinions, digging for deeper meanings, finding hidden gems.
If you want to declare a 100% truth, no problem, write a book. But even so, it will only be like just your opinion, man. What is the truth, anyway? I've witnessed so many times people who WERE THERE straight up telling lies. Only because you were there doesn't mean your opinion is the only opinion in the world.
The human factor is still there. You can forget things, you can misinterpret things, you can dislike a person, but you can not stop people from having different opinions. And I never dismissed information from people who were there, I just expressed how I see the situation. My sincerest apologies for any errors in my speech and any misunderstandings that may arise as a result for I am no native English speaker.
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And in another act of defending Mark, you don't need to be Einstein to know it wasn't money or fame that turned Mark into a "bully", the guy just got haunted by bad luck.
Eh? There's no doubt that MK had/has a huge amount of talent but I'm sure he would admit he had a huge amount of luck along the way as well.
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In my (actual) experience, many artists are pretty nice and reasonable. Of course they have their off days.
One thing that turns artists from humble to egotistical is selling millions of records and winning lots of accolades, but it doesn't always damage them.
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What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
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Dear Chris, I'm not arguing, and somehow, you always find ways to stab me with your umbrella. Years go by, and I'm still waiting for the moment when Chris will finally say at least a single nice word about me ;D Who's bullying?
Mate. Chris has spent his life working as a pro musician, has a ton of insight about the workings of top-tier bands, and lived through an era of the band that we could otherwise only speculate about. Yet you're constantly contradicting his posts!
Chris, Manu, Ed, and MK's dentist have all made it clear that he could be a very difficult person to deal with. A lot of very ambitions, high-achieving people are. Having that information (and accepting it) is what makes forums like this valuable and entertaining, otherwise they just become deluded circle jerks.
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What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Deary deary me. What a laughable post.
First of all do you expect Chris or Manu to just lie?
Secondly - taking the money and run? So I suppose you would stop in the middle of a tour and stand your ground, leave, not get paid your full
payment leaving you in limbo yet nothing changes going forward with regards to the tour environment or worst still you leave forcing the tour to be cancelled? Blame falls on you and I bet as a fan you wouldn't have been happy with that last scenario.
Deal with the facts. MK is one of my top 4 guitarists of all time and 2 of DS albums in my top 10. It doesn't mean i'm deluded. It doesn't make him a hero or a saint. In fact it all makes sense with regards to the ins and outs and comings and goings regarding DS.
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We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in their life?
I got divorced against my will in the mid-90's. I was devastated and in a dark place for years, but day to day I treated people around me with respect.
I gave up drums after the OES tour (that tells you something).
I worked for ten years in film and tv and you won't find anyone who says I was a bully, difficult to be around or ever unreasonable.
I was going to argue the comment about Mark not being in a good place in his personal life but you sum it up well. This is not really a suitable excuse like you have just mentioned. In fact a test of a person is when the going gets tough. When things are going smoothly that's easy. I have been in dark dark places yet my work collegues (in tv production funnily enough) would never in a million years have guessed. I always treat them well, with respect and quite often upbeat even if i'm feeling down inside. On the flipside in production i've worked with people that just bring the mood down, are often highly critical and lack tact to say the very least causing much unwarranted anxiety amongst other issues. Not good.
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What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Deary deary me. What a laughable post.
First of all do you expect Chris or Manu to just lie?
Secondly - taking the money and run? So I suppose you would stop in the middle of a tour and stand your ground, leave, not get paid your full
payment leaving you in limbo yet nothing changes going forward with regards to the tour environment or worst still you leave forcing the tour to be cancelled? Blame falls on you and I bet as a fan you wouldn't have been happy with that last scenario.
Deal with the facts. MK is one of my top 4 guitarists of all time and 2 of DS albums in my top 10. It doesn't mean i'm deluded. It doesn't make him a hero or a saint. In fact it all makes sense with regards to the ins and outs and comings and goings regarding DS.
If you are going to be critical of a post make sure you understand what you are being critical about.
Taking the money and running,i.e. not working for MK again,is what some of the musicians did.Nothing wrong with getting well paid for working in an unhappy atmosphere.
Your comment completely misunderstood what I said but never mind!
As for your first "point"-no I don't expect people to lie but there is NOTHING to gain by dissing people decades after the event.MK in 90,91 and 92 wasn't a good person to work for but they got very well paid for the experience.Nearly everyone is life has to deal with shit bosses but they don't go on and on about it decades later.Why come on to a MK fans forum and start dissing him for what happened over 30 years ago?I know there have been some crazy comments from forum members about how it was none of MKs fault but nobody in their right mind would believe that.
The bottom line of my post was that everybody "won" and they did so no idea what is laughable about it but perhaps you misunderstood this also?
Anyway surely this whole MK was no angel has been beaten to death by now so which 2 DS albums are in your top 10?Surely OES is not one of them:)
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Your whole point falls apart when it's not about the money.
As professional musicians we earn money from all our work. So you can draw a distinction between earning $1000 a day with a really nice artist, thoroughly enjoying the process and feeling valued, against earning $1000 and feeling undervalued and criticised.
Decades later why should anyone care? You are 100% right.
Except podcasters want to interview Pick Withers, or Manu Katche and want to know what were the ups and downs in their careers. Again, there is still no need to spend pages arguing about it on a Mark Knopfler fan forum.
The only issue *I* have is when forum members try to rewrite the events, make stuff up to reinforce their fandom.
I'm generally trying to put the facts straight, from the perspective of someone who was in the room.
I didn't post the Manu video. I didn't comment and wasn't planning to comment until someone who wasn't at the session started to make excuses for the bad behaviour by *guessing* that Mark was looking for something from the drumming that he wasn't getting.
Here is the thing....
* I don't come on the forum to 'diss' an artist decades after the fact. I come on the forum to correct misinformation and guess work that often ends up in the subject (Manu in this case) unfairly characterised as not a nice person himself, or not good enough for the job.
I only joined the forum in the first place after I googled the OES tour to try and remember a date on the tour, only to see THIS forum's members debating who was the worst drummer Dire Straits ever had and my name came up.
I was being 'dissed' behind my back.
'Dissing decades after the fact' was something that happened at AMIT before anyone ever replied with some actual facts.
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Chris, Manu, Ed, and MK's dentist have all made it clear that he could be a very difficult person to deal with. A lot of very ambitions, high-achieving people are.
And generally don't talk about it unless asked.
I never start any of these threads and usually don't post anything unless people start making stuff up, or start guessing about situations they weren't present at.
Whenever I've been criticised about the OES tour, all I've ever said was I played what Mark wanted me to play.
When Joop mentioned the OES tour was somewhat 'professional', obviously hinting that it was more rock and roll in previous outings like the BIA tour, I'm not arguing that fact, I'm just saying the whole band played the way Mark wanted them to play.
And going back to 'wakeywakey's' point about taking the money again....
I don't know, maybe Mark could have gone out for more than a year on his own, playing the OES album and his greatest hits, solo guitar and voice and been hugely successful. But the 7 band members (not inc Mark and John) bust a gut every night to make that show what it was.
It started in arenas and ended in 60,000 capacity stadia, despite the OES album not selling as well as BIA.
After the final show there was no party, not even a "thank you guys" on the flight home.
Like I say, the mood of an employment situation is set from above and trickles down.
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All that really matters to me as a music fan, in the long run, is the end product. And for all the evident difficulties of the On Every Street era, it remains my favourite Dire Straits album and tour. And Chris is still my favourite Dire Straits drummer. Always has been. So there you go Chris - all that pain and aggravation was worth it in the end!
Seriously though, let’s keep things in perspective here. We are talking about events that occurred almost 35 years ago. Mark has moved on, and though I obviously don’t know the man, he has evidently got his feet back on the ground and bettered himself as a person since he went solo, and it shows in the quality and emotional depth of his music, which in my personal opinion is on a different level entirely to what he was producing with Dire Straits. And most of all, let’s remember why we became fans - because we loved the music. We can go into discussions about whatever might have been going on behind the scenes and various other minutiae, but all in all, it’s not really relevant. The music itself comes first. Enjoy it for what it is.
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The End :) :thumbsup
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Hi all, our friend Mr Ed Bicknell has been kind enough to contribute to this thread, the following posts are from him, many thanks Ed!
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It’s the beginning of the month so for me that means a visit to A Man In Tights to see what delusions are being hurled back and forth and a thread has popped up that passeth all understanding... ..namely the Manu Katche one, so let me try and put you right on a few things and then you can move on to some new topic ….
The interviewer in that clip is John De Christopher who for many years was Talent Relations Manager at the Avedis Zildjian Cymbal Co…..the best of the best in the cymbal world, a bit of a pal and a decent and enthusiastic chap with questionable musical taste based on that clip.
Nice. Not that I trust medical diagnostic skills, but he clearly suggested that Mark suffers from some degree of bipolar disorder. Interesting thought.
Manu is French so this is a language issue. I don't think he literally meant bi-polar…he was talking about M’s moods and in that time frame he’d have been entirely correct.
Genius drummer! I've always loved his work with Gabriel and saw them live together. Didn't he and Mark drink a beer after the session and make amends? It reminds me of the story of Phil Palmer recording the OES outro for hours on countless Strats, and then Mark letting the engineer pick a take, more or less not caring about it. Btw the fill Manu plays at 4:48 - 4:52 is the best part of "Heavy Fuel" imho.
I would go so far as to say Manu is as brilliant on his chosen instrument as M is on his..a giant of a player as any drummer with half a brain and tinnitus will tell you.
A total gentleman with the emphasis on “gentle” .
Beer…I think I've read somewhere else they did.
Engineer comment….yes, not uncommon.
Nice. Not that I trust medical diagnostic skills, but he clearly suggested that Mark suffers from some degree of bipolar disorder. Interesting thought.
Well this is more of a character description than a diagnostic.
Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
What I am ignoring is what Mark was looking for while recording.
I mean he had something in the head and was failing to get it done the way he wanted to.
Quite an usual thing for a creative person after all.
Agreed as per my first comment above…...that was what he was trying to get over I think.
What pressure?
The “pressure” wasn’t any greater professionally speaking than anything DS had done before and he had a Division One team supporting and guiding him, just as he’d always had, at least until I quit.
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Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
Again, I heard about Mark's 'difficult' character long before the OES sessions. Having worked with several big name artists I think it usually has more to do with selling millions of records, surrounding yourself with 'yes men' and thinking you are some kind of supreme being.
The relaunch of Dire Straits was entirely Mark's choice. Even John Illsley was shocked and surprised when the idea came up.
Manu is a world class drummer and it IS unusual for world class musicians to say they were so unhappy on a session they were minutes away from quitting.
As a general point I agree with virtually everything Chris has said in this thread and in ALL the comments he’s made on the site generally for as long as he’s been making them .
You're lucky to have him just as DS were.
As Chris says, OES was ENTIRELY Mark’s choice including the engineers, studio and musicians.
To be so unpleasant that Manu wanted to “go home” really is unforgivable, he turned up to do a professional job not be silently abused by effectively a complete stranger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPv-0rLDyu4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPv-0rLDyu4)
From 1:03:25
I don’t understand what was Manu’s problem, to be honest. Mark wanted to re-record a “perfectly recorded” drum track, and so what? Do you only re-record mistakes or failed tracks, or what? What if Mark just wanted a different sound? Is this prohibited?
Just from this short piece, I already feel like Manu is somewhat difficult to work with himself. Like, what’s your problem, dude? Just re-record the part, that’s all! We hired you to do that, right? Right? Too many takes? Tell it to actors who can do 100 takes.
And lol, it’s not bipolar, it’s called life. Life is a sine wave, and everyone will feel bad one day and better the other day. When you feel bad, mood swings are to be expected. I’ve been through troubled times in my life (and am currently going through one of those), and I must admit, sometimes (rarely), I wasn’t particularly kind to some people in very particular situations where they might be slightly wrong, and I overreacted. Shit happens!
Yours truly,
Devil’s Mark Knopfler’s advocate
Mark’s negative attitude from the moment he ( Mark ) walked into the studio.
Surely you get that?
You're a master at missing the point.
You weren’t there, you don’t know the personalities involved, you have zero idea of how all this works just like some of your colleagues who make speculative statements based on NO knowledge, just uninformed guesswork.
By that I mean the process involved when the artist is at the top of the pile, is in the best studio with the best engineers, has no financial limits, has a fantastic support team to make his tea and STILL behaves like a complete plonker.
“ Manu is difficult to work with”.
How would you know?
You don’t.
You couldn’t be further from the truth.
He DID NOT complain about the number of takes in that clip.
I was at part of that session. I don’t think there were more than three per song from memory …that’s NOT what he was referring to.
I’m sorry you're going thru a hard time …I think I have an inkling of what that is, I hope it works out for you.
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Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
Again, I heard about Mark's 'difficult' character long before the OES sessions. Having worked with several big name artists I think it usually has more to do with selling millions of records, surrounding yourself with 'yes men' and thinking you are some kind of supreme being.
The relaunch of Dire Straits was entirely Mark's choice. Even John Illsley was shocked and surprised when the idea came up.
Manu is a world class drummer and it IS unusual for world class musicians to say they were so unhappy on a session they were minutes away from quitting.
Exactly! I cannot believe many posters still try and doubt or question someone like Manu (or yourself on various other threads to be perfectly honest.) I've also read one or two interviews years back with Manu telling a similar story. In fact this one has a more positive vibe towards Mark!
What people have to also remember is context, and actually above all how Dire Straits/Knopfler helped the certain artist in the future... for example those former band members who have been able to tell their truths/stories without bias:
Kache: The Dire Straits/sessions didn't eleviate Manu... he continued to work with numerous top players... he can be as honest and open as he wants.
Yourself: Same as above in some respects... appreciate you would have been paid fairly well... but if anything as i've read from you in the past, it put you off the stadium / live / band tour set-up. Had you been involved with another band at that time you may have continued and earned more money or respect etc elsewhere and your trajectory could have been different.
Palmer: Top session musician, can be as open as he wants to be
David K: sadly
Musicians who felt an allegiance to Mark or held him key to their own career/success so therefore won't speak negative of him:
Guy: obvious reasons
John I: same as above
Terry Williams: didn't play in any established bands after, in fact he was very humble about being replaced by Omar Hakim during the BIA sessions, bless him. Probably thought that he had won the lottery playing in that huge world tour. Top Rock 'n Roll drummer but not Neil Dorfsman's go-to on the drums.
Hal: Probably earned more money from one of his tv musical compositions than in his time in Dire Straits, so probably sees the DS period as a key stepping stone. In fact i'm sure that i've read articles about this, and of course what with Ed's back-story Hal may have felt a tad embarrassed by it all so he has always come across as positive regarding his time with DS and MK. Let's be honest Mark gave him a chance and Hal took it but went on to be successful in his own right. Talented chap.
Jack Sonni just to add seemed to have had various views about his time with DS and MK. Both positive and sadly negative. God rest his soul.
Look, Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits especially the albums Making Movies, Love Over Gold and Brothers In Arms had a deep influence on me as a kid. I used to mime on my tennis raquet being Mark Knopfler, wearing a headband too. haha! Especially on the deeper cuts like Telegraph Road, Skateaway, It Never Rains, Man's Too Big... and as I grew older and got into slightly heavier music I probably unfairly dismissed the early days with Pick and the more subtle compositions and playing... I loved the On The Night era partly because of Chris's drumming and energy which was the perfect juxtoposition compared with Mark, John who aren't exactly the most liveliest of players. That's partly why I liked Jack Sonni (RIP), Hal, Joop. Also having been in bands (albeit amateur ones) I appreciate that it's not all plain sailing. I nearly quit music because of one particular band mate, and his negativity towards me.
I still appreciate Mark as a songwriter, guitarist and lyricist and i'm sure he has mellowed over time, but I can also imagine how difficult he was to work with. The test of a person is when the going gets tough. Like a football manager if you are winning matches and everything is fine then great but when you start losing that's when difficulties set in. You can still deal with those issues respectfully and lead a team without being a dictator.
I'm not quite sure what your point is re the two groups of musicians you list.
That one lot can speak freely and the other not so much?
If I'm correct then I guess you're right depending again on the personalities though no one is preventing any of them saying anything they want and it WAS a long time ago.
Your last para here is correct I think.
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I always wondered if in this alternative version, always called like "demo" (I'm not sure if it's really a demo) that in a bootleg was labeled as recorded in february 1992, is Jeff Porcaro playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtFt1y23Hjc
Manu says Jeff's version had only two or three fills, this one doesn't have as much as Manu's version, but I don't know if that's enough to think this version is Jeff's one or not.
Maybe Ed would remember if he listened to it?
I've listened to that several times. It's not a demo as such, more a recorded run through I'd say…. I’m guessing. No idea which of them it is …..based on the cymbal sounds I'd say Jeff but don’t know.
I wonder how it got onto You Tube.
I don’t understand what was Manu’s problem, to be honest. Mark wanted to re-record a “perfectly recorded” drum track, and so what?
Yeah, you don't understand. The problem Manu had with Mark was during the tracking of 'Planet Of New Orleans'.
Just from this short piece, I already feel like Manu is somewhat difficult to work with himself. Like, what’s your problem, dude? Just re-record the part, that’s all! We hired you to do that, right? Right? Too many takes? Tell it to actors who can do 100 takes.
Again, in desperately defending mark you've got the wrong end of the stick. Manu was not having a great day in the studio. Music is best made with joy and mutual respect right? So he's already experienced some bad vibes, then Mark asks him to re-record a track Porcaro had completed.
He doesn't refuse, he just tells Mark he thinks the Jeff version is perfect. Which is totally legitimate.
In fact when I heard 'Heavy Fuel' I totally thought it was Jeff playing on the track. It is very much different to Manu's usual way of playing.
When I've been on recording sessions and been presented with a song that is opposite to my way of playing I am upfront and honest with the artist and producer.
"You should probably hire someone else for this song". That is called being professional.
Manu is a renowned professional, known for being an amazing drummer and very nice guy.
It's probable he is a little sensitive and mostly worked with people who appreciated his talent and were positive towards him (Sting and Gabriel).
Apparently not Knopfler on this day.
I always wondered if in this alternative version, always called like "demo" (I'm not sure if it's really a demo) that in a bootleg was labeled as recorded in february 1992, is Jeff Porcaro playing:
The OES version of 'Heavy Fuel' always sounded exactly like Jeff to me. It's a groove and song that are right up Porcaro's street.
I don't know what the problem was. Mark had changed his mind about something on the original recording. Jeff had flown back to America so they had to find someone else to track the drums.
It's weird to me when Manu says he just went 'crazy' on the drum performance. It sounds like a very simple drum performance to me. yes there are some fills but nothing that is out of the ordinary for this kind of sing.
Heavy Fuel is OES' Money For Nothing, but not as good.
I always wondered if in this alternative version, always called like "demo" (I'm not sure if it's really a demo) that in a bootleg was labeled as recorded in february 1992, is Jeff Porcaro playing:
The OES version of 'Heavy Fuel' always sounded exactly like Jeff to me. It's a groove and song that are right up Porcaro's street.
I don't know what the problem was. Mark had changed his mind about something on the original recording. Jeff had flown back to America so they had to find someone else to track the drums.
It's weird to me when Manu says he just went 'crazy' on the drum performance. It sounds like a very simple drum performance to me. yes there are some fills but nothing that is out of the ordinary for this kind of sing.
Heavy Fuel is OES' Money For Nothing, but not as good.
I still appreciate Mark as a songwriter, guitarist and lyricist and i'm sure he has mellowed over time, but I can also imagine how difficult he was to work with.
I think you hit the nail on the head in just about every way.
It's sobering to watch the various podcasts on Youtube - Pick Withers for example.
The churn of band members, for whatever reason. The lack of members at the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame ceremony.
In my experience, it's usually toxic to exclude band members from album sessions. Props to Terry for doing the BIA tour with good grace after being rejected at the studio sessions.
Look, at the end of the day Mark can be as difficult (maybe unpleasant) as he wants to be. No problem.
It's also OK for people to talk about their experiences and not OK to contradict them based on fandom rather than actually being there.
Correct on all points..ABSOLUTELY correct. .
He's really saying the same as me under 5 and you need to get real.
Mark was not in an happy time in his own personal life and he had a lot of pressure with relaunching one last time Dire Straits.
Again, I heard about Mark's 'difficult' character long before the OES sessions. Having worked with several big name artists I think it usually has more to do with selling millions of records, surrounding yourself with 'yes men' and thinking you are some kind of supreme being.
The relaunch of Dire Straits was entirely Mark's choice. Even John Illsley was shocked and surprised when the idea came up.
Manu is a world class drummer and it IS unusual for world class musicians to say they were so unhappy on a session they were minutes away from quitting.
Exactly! I cannot believe many posters still try and doubt or question someone like Manu (or yourself on various other threads to be perfectly honest.) I've also read one or two interviews years back with Manu telling a similar story. In fact this one has a more positive vibe towards Mark!
What people have to also remember is context, and actually above all how Dire Straits/Knopfler helped the certain artist in the future... for example those former band members who have been able to tell their truths/stories without bias:
Kache: The Dire Straits/sessions didn't eleviate Manu... he continued to work with numerous top players... he can be as honest and open as he wants.
Yourself: Same as above in some respects... appreciate you would have been paid fairly well... but if anything as i've read from you in the past, it put you off the stadium / live / band tour set-up. Had you been involved with another band at that time you may have continued and earned more money or respect etc elsewhere and your trajectory could have been different.
Palmer: Top session musician, can be as open as he wants to be
David K: sadly
Musicians who felt an allegiance to Mark or held him key to their own career/success so therefore won't speak negative of him:
Guy: obvious reasons
John I: same as above
Terry Williams: didn't play in any established bands after, in fact he was very humble about being replaced by Omar Hakim during the BIA sessions, bless him. Probably thought that he had won the lottery playing in that huge world tour. Top Rock 'n Roll drummer but not Neil Dorfsman's go-to on the drums.
Hal: Probably earned more money from one of his tv musical compositions than in his time in Dire Straits, so probably sees the DS period as a key stepping stone. In fact i'm sure that i've read articles about this, and of course what with Ed's back-story Hal may have felt a tad embarrassed by it all so he has always come across as positive regarding his time with DS and MK. Let's be honest Mark gave him a chance and Hal took it but went on to be successful in his own right. Talented chap.
Jack Sonni just to add seemed to have had various views about his time with DS and MK. Both positive and sadly negative. God rest his soul.
Look, Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits especially the albums Making Movies, Love Over Gold and Brothers In Arms had a deep influence on me as a kid. I used to mime on my tennis raquet being Mark Knopfler, wearing a headband too. haha! Especially on the deeper cuts like Telegraph Road, Skateaway, It Never Rains, Man's Too Big... and as I grew older and got into slightly heavier music I probably unfairly dismissed the early days with Pick and the more subtle compositions and playing... I loved the On The Night era partly because of Chris's drumming and energy which was the perfect juxtoposition compared with Mark, John who aren't exactly the most liveliest of players. That's partly why I liked Jack Sonni (RIP), Hal, Joop. Also having been in bands (albeit amateur ones) I appreciate that it's not all plain sailing. I nearly quit music because of one particular band mate, and his negativity towards me.
I still appreciate Mark as a songwriter, guitarist and lyricist and i'm sure he has mellowed over time, but I can also imagine how difficult he was to work with. The test of a person is when the going gets tough. Like a football manager if you are winning matches and everything is fine then great but when you start losing that's when difficulties set in. You can still deal with those issues respectfully and lead a team without being a dictator.
Absolutely tragic that Terry never really played again. I loved his drumming, and I'm not even talking so much about DS, all those Rockpile (and adjacent) records, Girls Talk for example.
YES!
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Yeah, you don't understand. The problem Manu had with Mark was during the tracking of 'Planet Of New Orleans'.
Manu is a renowned professional, known for being an amazing drummer and very nice guy.
It's probable he is a little sensitive and mostly worked with people who appreciated his talent and were positive towards him (Sting and Gabriel).
Apparently not Knopfler on this day.
Of course, I noticed he was talking about one song while listening to a completely different song and describing going "crazy" with it without anything crazy about it at all, which confused everyone, yourself included. I'd say that's a perfect example when, even if you were there, which is your favourite argument, things aren't exactly clear sometimes because you were there 35-ish years ago.
I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.
Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
He wasn’t listening to anything in that clip until John DC cued up Heavy Fuel.
“Crazy” is a language thing.
He meant relative to how he normally played so he’s right, Manu comes from the more subtle school ( though he can play anything if required , as here.)
Mark/Neil, no they wouldn’t, they’d have long forgotten and Manu didn't use the word toxic unless I misheard (which you’ve quoted twice).
The fact that he ( and Jeff Porcaro) both turned down the tour ought to tell you something, Jeff had the same management as Vince Gill so I’m guessing Vince heard what Jeff thought ( he was way, WAY more pissed off than Manu and maybe that influenced Vince’s decision? ( I know he’s given other reasons in interviews.)
Van M is COMPLETELY irrelevant.
Chuck Berry is DEAD.
You know Van do you or are you relying on ancient hearsay ?
What others might be like is no excuse.
We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in there life? I know I have, the difference is I didn't do it in front of the entire world. I am sure after putting Dire Straits to bed and going solo made Mark into a different person, in a good way, and I am sure his personal life improved greatly after marrying Kitty, who has turned out to be the love of his life. He went to Nashville and came back with the core musicians that formed his solo band for the best part of 30 years, the people who have a long recording history with many artists, they didn't have to play with Mark, they clearly wanted to, and they would not have stuck with him this long if he was still not easy to get along with!! why would they? Also, the like of Chet Atkins and Emmylou Harris have only ever had good things to say about it him, so, some people clash for whatever reason, but Mark has found the people who he likes to be around in his personal and professional life, so, that's great for him.
Ah. Someone who acknowledges he doesn’t know because he wasn’t there. KUDOS!
You are perceptive and correct on all points especially regarding Kitty who changed his life and as you say, good for him .
I bet if you'd cue Mark or Neil in this part of the interview, they would describe what really has happened and how both Manu and Mark overreacted at the time. I still think Manu's problem, whatever that was, wasn't enough to justify calling working with Mark difficult or toxic. I'm sure Manu is a cool guy, and I love jazz and French musicians, I'm just not sold on the difficulty factor.
Okay, if Mark is difficult to work with and toxic, what about people who are notoriously incredibly difficult to work with? Like Van Morrison? Or Chuck Berry? I think Mark is a freaking saint compared to these guys.
No offense, but what makes you think you have any basis for this to be true? Mark's current bandmates claim that he's all sunshine and rainbows nowadays, but during the DS era he had a clearly established reputation as a control freak, and we have had multiple first-person accounts here on this board, either in person or in published interviews, attesting to the fact that Mark was basically insufferable around the time of OES recording and tour. Citing Van Morrison and Chuck Berry as "difficult" doesn't exclude Mark from that category. Claiming this was somehow "Manu's problem" seems like a combination of rank speculation, wishful thinking and hero worship.
Honestly, I just don't see the point of defending "the dark side of MK", so I do the next best thing and act as a devil's advocate. Amazing songs were written by a visionary artist and recorded perfectly by brilliant professional musicians and engineers, and a giant tour was executed without a single missed date, making millions of people happy, including myself (I've killed my DVD copy of On The Night by playing it too much).
When I see all these interviews claiming MK was difficult to work with, blah, blah, blah, I cringe like crazy. Nobody seems to feel empathy towards Knopfler and focuses all their attention on his "victims" by grouping whom you can form a chamber orchestra, it seems. I'm a big fan of this thing called "result", and if the result is this great, the proverbial evil side of Mark doesn't impress me at all.
From Joop de Korte's interview, we learned that Mark is the kind of guy who throws away the clothes he just recorded a live album with, and unfortunately, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and you can't please everybody. I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable. Maybe because I'm just a bit ruthless and cynical myself, but what I'm interested in the most is the result.
No you don’t. You express what YOU think under the guise of being DA.
There were no victims as I understand that word…we are not talking about a plane crash.
Second para is incorrect…he’s drowning in empathy on this site.
But, I’ll give you one thing, does it matter that Elvis died falling off a toilet full of drugs ( Elvis not the toilet )? NO .
The results are there, in Presley’s case in spades ( mixed in with some complete junk eg the mid career movie soundtracks ) .
Joop gives good interview.
Great guy but he never knew where the ONE was 🥱 so his audition for James Brown failed miserably.
I think MKs music was better when he was a more of a control freak. OES sounds like it went too far though and there was an arrogance in approach. Being a control freak also doesn't mean he was good to work with... from Manu's accounts (of which I've also heard a different earlier interview) the studio vibes were BAD on that day. In my experience as someone who has put out records on a very small scale, that atmosphere doesn't lead to a good outcome. The fact that Manu still pulled off the job shows what kind of league he is in as a player.
MKs solo band might not complain, but he seems to hold them in some kind of reverance as mainly stateside musicians with country roots of some kind : probably because they are also so adaptable, and let's not forget they all started of from the same position... as hired sidemen rather than Dire Straits which was band mates and eventual fill in hires.
Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.
That’s funny. Very. Maybe you are correct, I never thought of it that way.
On THAT day only?
After Jeff P left his wonderful manager Larry Fitzgerald ( Toto’s ) called me to let me know how much Jeff hated the sessions and thought Mark “rude and difficult” ( plus a few other choice comments ) and was passing on the tour invite which I hadn’t even been told about.
I was really gutted by that since Porcaro was a hero for sure, I had worked with him on a Steely Dan UK tour I set up in 1974 so I’d seen his stunning live performances close up ( he was SIXTEEN then! )
I’d say you are correct re the Dull ddddddd…no! I mustn’t say it.
The dynamic M had with them was completely different to the one he had with the OES band lineup.
With hindsight I think that’s correct assuming BIA was the “heyday” ..I do remember that every DAY someone shouted “ HEY ! ,” at them.
Mostly waiters they hadn’t tipped.
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I think MKs music was better when he was a more of a control freak. OES sounds like it went too far though and there was an arrogance in approach. Being a control freak also doesn't mean he was good to work with... from Manu's accounts (of which I've also heard a different earlier interview) the studio vibes were BAD on that day. In my experience as someone who has put out records on a very small scale, that atmosphere doesn't lead to a good outcome. The fact that Manu still pulled off the job shows what kind of league he is in as a player.
MKs solo band might not complain, but he seems to hold them in some kind of reverance as mainly stateside musicians with country roots of some kind : probably because they are also so adaptable, and let's not forget they all started of from the same position... as hired sidemen rather than Dire Straits which was band mates and eventual fill in hires.
Losing Terry in my view tipped the balance too far in my view away from the original soul of the heyday of the group. Whilst he didn't contribute lots to BIA album-wise what he did do was probably one of the best rock drum intros recorded ever on Monry For Nothing, and can't help thinking Heavy Fuel is the kind of straight rock track that he'd nail.
I agree 100% that you achieve a better result by being a control freak, also known as a perfectionist, not to be confused with a micromanager. I don't think that a tidy and cosy atmosphere in a creative environment guarantees a great result, though. Sometimes, it guarantees only the lack of the result as everybody's too chill and relaxed. There's a balance to these things, and certainly, this balance was compromised at this time because of all that was happening in M's life.
Another thing that I feel is more important than the result is how you deal with your mistakes. As you can be a control freak only for so long, and it really wears off your mind and nerves, so instead of being a control freak all the time, just hire a band consisting of people with 500 years of combined playing experience. You simply won't ever need to be a control freak in this situation. There were no more Dire Straits after OES, which means all the lessons have been learned.
"Better result by being a control freak "….wrong again!
Wow, you really have no idea how it all works do you, but you are right re getting the correct balance.
Perfectionists are not necessarily control freaks and I've dealt with both.
I don’t consider M to have been a control freak ( whatever that is ) although maybe there were those who felt that about him during that period, Chris might, he’s alluded to it.
I never felt he was at any point in our dealings together, not in 23 years and actually not even a perfectionist ( M would frequently deny that back then to journalists etc ) .
His sense of humour took care of all that.
Alot of stuff was just allowed to be however it turned out in the moment, both of us are/were fans of spontaneity ( and convenience).
“Perfection” frequently leads to musical cabaret.
After the 6 weeks of rehearsals we did as the NHB’s right before the first show on the first night he said “ ok, forget everything you’ve learned and have a good time” , which we did, mistakes and all.
Your philosophy concerning mistakes has some underlying truth I guess ( see, you can get it right and I am NOT trying to patronise you) though I do not think that "ALL the lessons have been learned" and 100% M wouldn’t think that.
You NEVER stop learning in life ..that’s when you die ( and maybe not even then ) .
We should come up with a top 10 list of musicians who have a reputation for being tossers and see if MK would get on it.
Van M
Ginger Baker
Chuck Berry
Lou Reed
(I've actually queued to get autographs from both Chuck and Lou after shows and they were both fine).
Roger Waters.
Bob Dylan.
Ginger Baker. Number 1.
No contest.
The biggest TWAT I ever met in music and a total musical snob.
Really unpleasant, socially inept and a bit pathetic I thought.
But as Erica Clapped Out says, “ he had the gift ” ( ie he could count to one).
Sure....but that isn't the point.
I don't really want to start a negative discussion as a thing in of itself.
When people say something didn't happen, or if it did it was justified, I often jump in to correct the facts.
When people claim Manu wasn't a good enough drummer, or was a having a bad day himself.....I have to defend the guy, not as an emotion, but based on the facts as experienced by more than one other drummer.
Completely agree.
Any idea that Manu ( or Pick, or Terry, or Omar, or Jeff or Chris ) wasn’t good enough is just moronic.
That just leaves me then…🤡
You are always arguing...
But anyway, yes, obviously Van Morrison has a very bad reputation amongst musicians.
It's like saying if you don't like Jack the Ripper what do you say about Vlad The Impaler?
It's just silly....and of course reaching for the most fanciful excuses to explain bullying and bad behaviour.
Dear Chris, I'm not arguing, and somehow, you always find ways to stab me with your umbrella. Years go by, and I'm still waiting for the moment when Chris will finally say at least a single nice word about me ;D Who's bullying?
But jokes aside, seriously, there are no winners on discussion forums, there are only survivors. There's no need to be so defensive of our opinions, I guess, let alone you can't "draw the line" under something, as you've said in the "grumpy artists" thread.
One of my favourite phrases that was used on one of the Soviet posters during WWII was something like "do your revenge on the workbench", meaning if you feel injustice, put the energy into your work instead of wasting it on something else. Let's drink to turn our negativity into something positive.
I’ll leave it to the two of you to sort yourselves out ( you CAN’T be serious about not arguing..).
I LOVE your notion about survivors. LOVE IT.
Cilla Black (big pop star in the 60s) was an awful person by multiple accounts.
Ed mentioned that Gerry Rafferty was difficult to work with but an alcoholic an undiagnosed bipolar.
Strangely I knew Cilla RIP quite well over many years. Yes, she lost her charm bracelet in the Cavern cloakroom ( get the reference ?) .
Gerry….hmmm….some days nice, some an ass.
Like most of us then 👺
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Cilla Black (big pop star in the 60s) was an awful person by multiple accounts.
Ed mentioned that Gerry Rafferty was difficult to work with but an alcoholic an undiagnosed bipolar.
I guess quite a ton of artists are difficult to work with, probably most of them, and that's actually to be expected. As many of you know, the average intelligence level of human beings is pretty low, so I wouldn't expect everybody to act as ladies and gentlemen, especially people with a lot of money and power. In fact, in most cases, money and fame will just show you what this person was all about, it doesn't change a person.
And in another act of defending Mark, you don't need to be Einstein to know it wasn't money or fame that turned Mark into a "bully", the guy just got haunted by bad luck.
Finally! A sense of humour emerges .
Yep. I think being “difficult” is almost a requirement but being a total dick is NOT, as always in the human condition, it’s a matter of degree.
Now. You have COMPLETELY lost me.
“ Bad luck ”? What bad luck?
On life's scales his good luck outweighs the bad massively.
Your knowledge of M’s personality is impressive given you’ve never met him as far as I know.
Don’t understand that comment at all.
I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable.
I guess English isn't your first language.
You claim not to be dismissing 'the victims', you claim not to be arguing with the facts.
I'm not claiming anything. I'm just having fun on a fan forum while enjoying some pineapple juice. There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who think words on a fan forum are set in stone and will reverberate for eternity. And those who think it's a platform for sharing opinions, digging for deeper meanings, finding hidden gems.
If you want to declare a 100% truth, no problem, write a book. But even so, it will only be like just your opinion, man. What is the truth, anyway? I've witnessed so many times people who WERE THERE straight up telling lies. Only because you were there doesn't mean your opinion is the only opinion in the world.
The human factor is still there. You can forget things, you can misinterpret things, you can dislike a person, but you can not stop people from having different opinions. And I never dismissed information from people who were there, I just expressed how I see the situation. My sincerest apologies for any errors in my speech and any misunderstandings that may arise as a result for I am no native English speaker.
Sometimes Pavel, you disappear up your own arse in your search for fun.…what Chris is saying, what I’m saying, is that we were there, in my case for the whole DS ride, and neither of us is in the habit of telling lies or making things up, we don't need to.
Opinions are fine but they need to be based on facts, on actualities , yours are based on nothing or am I missing something? .
And in another act of defending Mark, you don't need to be Einstein to know it wasn't money or fame that turned Mark into a "bully", the guy just got haunted by bad luck.
Eh? There's no doubt that MK had/has a huge amount of talent but I'm sure he would admit he had a huge amount of luck along the way as well.
EXACTLY!
In my (actual) experience, many artists are pretty nice and reasonable. Of course they have their off days.
One thing that turns artists from humble to egotistical is selling millions of records and winning lots of accolades, but it doesn't always damage them.
I agree. 90% of the artists I've worked with have been positive experiences….creative, great people , intelligent, kind, funny, really interesting, many verbally disgusting ( great ) , but some for sure have gone from all of that to being narcissistic wankers because of fame, money and celebrity, and THEN come out the other end when they realise…or someone they respect tells them….it’s all a load of crap.
I wonder if Roger Waters respects anyone ……
What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Because somebody started this bloody thread and because John DeChristopher brought up Heavy Fuel to some French drummer who’s smile when he did said EVERYTHING.
I had to chuckle at that .
I’m 100% sure that most musicians would rather not have been “ upset and run ”…..money alone is not compensation for being treated badly in any workplace let alone the creative arts.
So did they really “win”?
Dear Chris, I'm not arguing, and somehow, you always find ways to stab me with your umbrella. Years go by, and I'm still waiting for the moment when Chris will finally say at least a single nice word about me ;D Who's bullying?
Mate. Chris has spent his life working as a pro musician, has a ton of insight about the workings of top-tier bands, and lived through an era of the band that we could otherwise only speculate about. Yet you're constantly contradicting his posts!
Chris, Manu, Ed, and MK's dentist have all made it clear that he could be a very difficult person to deal with. A lot of very ambitions, high-achieving people are. Having that information (and accepting it) is what makes forums like this valuable and entertaining, otherwise they just become deluded circle jerks.
LOVE IT!!! M’s dentist or “ how to get a front cover on The Sun in one easy lesson”.
Someone who accepts that AMIT is 90% speculation and 10% inspiration.
You really do know all the chords don’t you?
What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Deary deary me. What a laughable post.
First of all do you expect Chris or Manu to just lie?
Secondly - taking the money and run? So I suppose you would stop in the middle of a tour and stand your ground, leave, not get paid your full
payment leaving you in limbo yet nothing changes going forward with regards to the tour environment or worst still you leave forcing the tour to be cancelled? Blame falls on you and I bet as a fan you wouldn't have been happy with that last scenario.
Deal with the facts. MK is one of my top 4 guitarists of all time and 2 of DS albums in my top 10. It doesn't mean i'm deluded. It doesn't make him a hero or a saint. In fact it all makes sense with regards to the ins and outs and comings and goings regarding DS.
You have expressed so much better than I did a really valid point AND you “get it” ( your last para ….).
What Chris and I have been aiming at is for someone…anyone…to say “ it all makes sense ..re the comings and goings”.
Hally fucking loo yah.
AND a quiz. I love a quiz. 3 more guitarists for us to guess at….Erica Clapped Out? Jimi Hendrix? Stevie Ray Vaughan? Hank Marvin? David Gilmour? Gary Clark Jnr. Susan Tedeschi? Guitar George? Steve Luthaker? Chet Atkins? Scotty Moore? The bloke who played “ Wipeout”?
Am I warm?
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We all know Mark was not in a good place in his personal life around the making and touring of the On Every Street album, and he may have taken it out on other people, if that was intentional or not I don't know because I wasn't there!! But, really, hasn't everyone gone through bad times in their life?
I got divorced against my will in the mid-90's. I was devastated and in a dark place for years, but day to day I treated people around me with respect.
I gave up drums after the OES tour (that tells you something).
I worked for ten years in film and tv and you won't find anyone who says I was a bully, difficult to be around or ever unreasonable.
I was going to argue the comment about Mark not being in a good place in his personal life but you sum it up well. This is not really a suitable excuse like you have just mentioned. In fact a test of a person is when the going gets tough. When things are going smoothly that's easy. I have been in dark dark places yet my work collegues (in tv production funnily enough) would never in a million years have guessed. I always treat them well, with respect and quite often upbeat even if i'm feeling down inside. On the flipside in production i've worked with people that just bring the mood down, are often highly critical and lack tact to say the very least causing much unwarranted anxiety amongst other issues. Not good.
Same. Not asking for sympathy (at all ) but I’ve been at the professional bottom many times and not just OES, ( the Communique tour was way worse and for identical reasons in a way ) but you just have to keep going, and if you happen to be the head of an organisation it's vital to keep the morale of those you are working with at the highest level if you can.
That also applies in one’s personal life.
Chris’s comment re divorce struck a chord but not a chord that Guitar George ever learned ( you know, the coal-miner from Leeds ).
I’ve been extremely fortunate in my life to have a fantastic family and the most amazing partners and friends ..that's been worth way, way more than getting money for nothing.
What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Deary deary me. What a laughable post.
First of all do you expect Chris or Manu to just lie?
Secondly - taking the money and run? So I suppose you would stop in the middle of a tour and stand your ground, leave, not get paid your full
payment leaving you in limbo yet nothing changes going forward with regards to the tour environment or worst still you leave forcing the tour to be cancelled? Blame falls on you and I bet as a fan you wouldn't have been happy with that last scenario.
Deal with the facts. MK is one of my top 4 guitarists of all time and 2 of DS albums in my top 10. It doesn't mean i'm deluded. It doesn't make him a hero or a saint. In fact it all makes sense with regards to the ins and outs and comings and goings regarding DS.
If you are going to be critical of a post make sure you understand what you are being critical about.
Taking the money and running,i.e. not working for MK again,is what some of the musicians did.Nothing wrong with getting well paid for working in an unhappy atmosphere.
Your comment completely misunderstood what I said but never mind!
As for your first "point"-no I don't expect people to lie but there is NOTHING to gain by dissing people decades after the event.MK in 90,91 and 92 wasn't a good person to work for but they got very well paid for the experience.Nearly everyone is life has to deal with shit bosses but they don't go on and on about it decades later.Why come on to a MK fans forum and start dissing him for what happened over 30 years ago?I know there have been some crazy comments from forum members about how it was none of MKs fault but nobody in their right mind would believe that.
The bottom line of my post was that everybody "won" and they did so no idea what is laughable about it but perhaps you misunderstood this also?
Anyway surely this whole MK was no angel has been beaten to death by now so which 2 DS albums are in your top 10?Surely OES is not one of them:)
I’m going to step past this.
It’s more complicated than “dissing”....what I've said has been (a possibly misunderstood) attempt at fact/situation checking.
Working with M changed my life and I changed his ..I like to think that for both of us that was a positive. It certainly was for me and I don’t mean financially.
But to get the overall picture, well the DS bit, you can't just say it was all fabulous, no hiccups at all, endless fun, especially when the dark bits lead to much of the music that was produced which is presumably why you're here in the first place, and in turn lead to the band’s dissolution and M’s solo career which is really what this site is about.
So to that extent the “dissing” IS the history, at least in part and I agree, time to drop I think.
Incidentally, if you read ANY music bios/watch any clips going back 50 years or more you will find mountains of “dissing” ..Mick and Keith, Pete and Roger, Francis Rossi ( ouch) , David G and Roger W ( oh boy) , Ian Anderson and Martin Barre, Drake and whoever the other one is , UB40, Oasis, on and on, it comes with the territory and there’s no time limit on it .
Your whole point falls apart when it's not about the money.
As professional musicians we earn money from all our work. So you can draw a distinction between earning $1000 a day with a really nice artist, thoroughly enjoying the process and feeling valued, against earning $1000 and feeling undervalued and criticised.
Decades later why should anyone care? You are 100% right.
Except podcasters want to interview Pick Withers, or Manu Katche and want to know what were the ups and downs in their careers. Again, there is still no need to spend pages arguing about it on a Mark Knopfler fan forum.
The only issue *I* have is when forum members try to rewrite the events, make stuff up to reinforce their fandom.
I'm generally trying to put the facts straight, from the perspective of someone who was in the room.
I didn't post the Manu video. I didn't comment and wasn't planning to comment until someone who wasn't at the session started to make excuses for the bad behaviour by *guessing* that Mark was looking for something from the drumming that he wasn't getting.
Here is the thing....
* I don't come on the forum to 'diss' an artist decades after the fact. I come on the forum to correct misinformation and guess work that often ends up in the subject (Manu in this case) unfairly characterised as not a nice person himself, or not good enough for the job.
I only joined the forum in the first place after I googled the OES tour to try and remember a date on the tour, only to see THIS forum's members debating who was the worst drummer Dire Straits ever had and my name came up.
I was being 'dissed' behind my back.
'Dissing decades after the fact' was something that happened at AMIT before anyone ever replied with some actual facts.
Chris, Manu, Ed, and MK's dentist have all made it clear that he could be a very difficult person to deal with. A lot of very ambitions, high-achieving people are.
And generally don't talk about it unless asked.
I never start any of these threads and usually don't post anything unless people start making stuff up, or start guessing about situations they weren't present at.
Whenever I've been criticised about the OES tour, all I've ever said was I played what Mark wanted me to play.
When Joop mentioned the OES tour was somewhat 'professional', obviously hinting that it was more rock and roll in previous outings like the BIA tour, I'm not arguing that fact, I'm just saying the whole band played the way Mark wanted them to play.
And going back to 'wakeywakey's' point about taking the money again....
I don't know, maybe Mark could have gone out for more than a year on his own, playing the OES album and his greatest hits, solo guitar and voice and been hugely successful. But the 7 band members (not inc Mark and John) bust a gut every night to make that show what it was.
It started in arenas and ended in 60,000 capacity stadia, despite the OES album not selling as well as BIA.
After the final show there was no party, not even a "thank you guys" on the flight home.
Like I say, the mood of an employment situation is set from above and trickles down.
Chris has said beautifully what I’m too tired to put into words ( it’s 3 am).
Especially his second paragraph…people are INTERESTED. .
This site is FULL of people like that.
Are they wrong to want to know the gory details or would they prefer a sanitised version ?
Chris and I have the SAME motivation and in this thread it started as the consequence of a very recent interview with Manu where the host asked him specifically about a situation/session he’d obviously heard about elsewhere.
Why do you think he did that?
Was Manu supposed to say “ oh that was a perfect day, I had the best time, fantastic atmosphere” or was his honest response “dissing” ?
Sorry but you are being wholly unrealistic and Chris’s last sentence beautifully sums this up.
In his response 48 ..I’m the same.
All that really matters to me as a music fan, in the long run, is the end product. And for all the evident difficulties of the On Every Street era, it remains my favourite Dire Straits album and tour. And Chris is still my favourite Dire Straits drummer. Always has been. So there you go Chris - all that pain and aggravation was worth it in the end!
Seriously though, let’s keep things in perspective here. We are talking about events that occurred almost 35 years ago. Mark has moved on, and though I obviously don’t know the man, he has evidently got his feet back on the ground and bettered himself as a person since he went solo, and it shows in the quality and emotional depth of his music, which in my personal opinion is on a different level entirely to what he was producing with Dire Straits. And most of all, let’s remember why we became fans - because we loved the music. We can go into discussions about whatever might have been going on behind the scenes and various other minutiae, but all in all, it’s not really relevant. The music itself comes first. Enjoy it for what it is.
Good post and exactly as it should be.
M is not the person now that he was back then and hasn’t been for YEARS .
Once he’d dumped DS and the baggage that came with it , sorted out his personal life ( very happily ), got a set of musicians who are good people, professional, not politicking and proud to play his music, and most of all had avoided the pitfalls of fame and celebrity and recovered from that terrible accident, he was set to go and go he did, down to “Tights Are Us”, an exclusive shop on the Kings Rd that stocks his exact size.
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The End :) :thumbsup
The End indeed.
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Thanks Ed for your comments, pleasant or unpleasant. The main reason for your and Chris's confusion about my character, apart from an obvious Grand Canyon of age/culture/language gap, is just the fact I hate text messages. You may have noticed all my posts are as big as Mark’s ego during OES years, and some of my critics may say they are 95% water or whatever, I don't care.
The fact is, it's only 5% of my thought process and what I'm giving out is just the tip of the iceberg and I COULD explain myself better should it be a proper talk and not a back and forth in Morse code or homing pigeons. Forum is built for relatively short and neutral messages and I’m not wired for that, unfortunately, so it seems like every single communication with me falls into an argument.
I love talking to people and not texting, that's why I even had enough balls to ask you for an interview upon your first visit on AMIT. I give one-on-one guitar lessons daily to people all over the world, and I cherish 1.5–3 hours of live talking every day. On the other hand, I feel bad about texting as I find it too sterile, lacking emotion and fun, and not something exciting to return to, and I do feel bad for misguiding people.
I apologise to have caused so much misunderstanding on this forum and for my constant battles with Chris, I truly appreciate inputs from both of you guys, don’t get me wrong. I can be unbearable at times, but I do think somewhere in the middle of the debris field left over from our battles often lies a kernel of fun, truth, and common sense, and I’m thankful for having worthy discoursers like you. Cheers!
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I find it too sterile, lacking emotion and fun, and not something exciting to return to.
Sounds like a show during the OES tour ;D Then again, I wasn't there :smack
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Your whole point falls apart when it's not about the money.
As professional musicians we earn money from all our work. So you can draw a distinction between earning $1000 a day with a really nice artist, thoroughly enjoying the process and feeling valued, against earning $1000 and feeling undervalued and criticised.
Decades later why should anyone care? You are 100% right.
Except podcasters want to interview Pick Withers, or Manu Katche and want to know what were the ups and downs in their careers. Again, there is still no need to spend pages arguing about it on a Mark Knopfler fan forum.
The only issue *I* have is when forum members try to rewrite the events, make stuff up to reinforce their fandom.
I'm generally trying to put the facts straight, from the perspective of someone who was in the room.
I didn't post the Manu video. I didn't comment and wasn't planning to comment until someone who wasn't at the session started to make excuses for the bad behaviour by *guessing* that Mark was looking for something from the drumming that he wasn't getting.
Here is the thing....
* I don't come on the forum to 'diss' an artist decades after the fact. I come on the forum to correct misinformation and guess work that often ends up in the subject (Manu in this case) unfairly characterised as not a nice person himself, or not good enough for the job.
I only joined the forum in the first place after I googled the OES tour to try and remember a date on the tour, only to see THIS forum's members debating who was the worst drummer Dire Straits ever had and my name came up.
I was being 'dissed' behind my back.
'Dissing decades after the fact' was something that happened at AMIT before anyone ever replied with some actual facts.
...and then you stayed, lol
Personally very happy to have you on board, as, as you mention, you were there, "in the room" and that is a rare opportunity for us fans.
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Your whole point falls apart when it's not about the money.
As professional musicians we earn money from all our work. So you can draw a distinction between earning $1000 a day with a really nice artist, thoroughly enjoying the process and feeling valued, against earning $1000 and feeling undervalued and criticised.
Decades later why should anyone care? You are 100% right.
Except podcasters want to interview Pick Withers, or Manu Katche and want to know what were the ups and downs in their careers. Again, there is still no need to spend pages arguing about it on a Mark Knopfler fan forum.
The only issue *I* have is when forum members try to rewrite the events, make stuff up to reinforce their fandom.
I'm generally trying to put the facts straight, from the perspective of someone who was in the room.
I didn't post the Manu video. I didn't comment and wasn't planning to comment until someone who wasn't at the session started to make excuses for the bad behaviour by *guessing* that Mark was looking for something from the drumming that he wasn't getting.
Here is the thing....
* I don't come on the forum to 'diss' an artist decades after the fact. I come on the forum to correct misinformation and guess work that often ends up in the subject (Manu in this case) unfairly characterised as not a nice person himself, or not good enough for the job.
I only joined the forum in the first place after I googled the OES tour to try and remember a date on the tour, only to see THIS forum's members debating who was the worst drummer Dire Straits ever had and my name came up.
I was being 'dissed' behind my back.
'Dissing decades after the fact' was something that happened at AMIT before anyone ever replied with some actual facts.
...and then you stayed, lol
Personally very happy to have you on board, as, as you mention, you were there, "in the room" and that is a rare opportunity for us fans.
I'm sorry I'm writing again, but I just remembered the dissing of Chris he was talking about, and I remember actually defending his drumming and going against people who criticised his playing. So much for irony :lol I remember I was surprised that his playing was disliked so badly (especially on Sultans if I remember correctly), that I went on and defended the guy. So I'm not only Devil's advocate, but apparently Chris's too. Checkmate!
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Again....and again....and again.
It's not a personal battle. It is ONLY about correcting misinformation, untruths and guess work.
That's it. End of story.
I honestly don't care wether someone I don't know and will never meet thinks I'm the 'worst drummer Dire Straits ever had'. I called out someone on the forum for personal comments about my mental state etc, etc...
It's ok for someone to not enjoy a musician's work. It isn't to speculate about their mental state or personality....while that is on a public forum that the person being talked about can read.
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It doesn't matter how technically proficient they are, a session musician isn't going to keep getting hired if they are a pain in the arse.
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Hang on a minute… Dusty is actually Ed Bicknell? WTF lol
What am I missing here?!
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Again....and again....and again.
It's not a personal battle. It is ONLY about correcting misinformation, untruths and guess work.
That's it. End of story.
I honestly don't care wether someone I don't know and will never meet thinks I'm the 'worst drummer Dire Straits ever had'. I called out someone on the forum for personal comments about my mental state etc, etc...
It's ok for someone to not enjoy a musician's work. It isn't to speculate about their mental state or personality....while that is on a public forum that the person being talked about can read.
I read this entire thread and it’s exhausting… everyone wants to be right when it’s mostly opinions (fellow forum members) on facts (musician and manager). I have no problem accepting that Mark wasn’t exactly friendly and gentle as well as I understand it’s not right to judge without knowing what might have triggered it. The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
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The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
I'm not 'softly' blaming Mark, I'm saying it out loud.
The whole DS experience was pretty miserable, not just because of Mark, but one or two other things that went down.
Half the band wouldn't talk to me at rehearsals, apparently because their favourite choice of new drummer wasn't me.
Early in rehearsals we started learning 'Walk Of Life' and about a verse and chorus in Mark kept stopping us and would turn to me and say rather angrily "you're slowing down". I've never been a slowing down drummer. As a professional I try to keep a steady tempo, but if anything I had a tendency to slightly speed up. After a` day of this I was in despair and it was actually good old Danny Cummings who saved the day. he said, why don't you bring in a drum machine tomorrow, play along with that and we'll get to the bottom if this.
So yeah, we did that, we all agreed a tempo, we started to play 'Walk Of Life' and Mark and several others were like greyhounds chasing a rabbit.
Case closed.
Both Pick and Terry were speeding up drummers and because I was a steady drummer it was assumed I was slowing down.
Anyway, if you are locked in an unpleasant situation for more than a year, almost every day of every week, sure.... I lost my love of drumming, I lost my confidence, I started to dislike guitar based rock.
You can think what you like, but the reality is I put my drums in a storage facility and rarely played through most of the 1990's and most of the 2000's, really only going back to drumming around 2016 when I hooked up with Chris White and DSE.
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The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
I'm not 'softly' blaming Mark, I'm saying it out loud.
The whole DS experience was pretty miserable, not just because of Mark, but one or two other things that went down.
Half the band wouldn't talk to me at rehearsals, apparently because their favourite choice of new drummer wasn't me.
Early in rehearsals we started learning 'Walk Of Life' and about a verse and chorus in Mark kept stopping us and would turn to me and say rather angrily "you're slowing down". I've never been a slowing down drummer. As a professional I try to keep a steady tempo, but if anything I had a tendency to slightly speed up. After a` day of this I was in despair and it was actually good old Danny Cummings who saved the day. he said, why don't you bring in a drum machine tomorrow, play along with that and we'll get to the bottom if this.
So yeah, we did that, we all agreed a tempo, we started to play 'Walk Of Life' and Mark and several others were like greyhounds chasing a rabbit.
Case closed.
Both Pick and Terry were speeding up drummers and because I was a steady drummer it was assumed I was slowing down.
Anyway, if you are locked in an unpleasant situation for more than a year, almost every day of every week, sure.... I lost my love of drumming, I lost my confidence, I started to dislike guitar based rock.
You can think what you like, but the reality is I put my drums in a storage facility and rarely played through most of the 1990's and most of the 2000's, really only going back to drumming around 2016 when I hooked up with Chris White and DSE.
Holy crap. If half the band would not talk to you because of such a thing they should at least respect that the decision to hire you was MK and get the best out of it. Even ignore who hired you and simply get the best thing going, since everybody was going to work together for so long.
Anyway for whats it worth, when we saw you and DS in Denmark in 1992, we were blown away. The unpleasant situation was very well hidden I must say. I guess many of us had the opposite experience seen from the fan side.
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The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
I'm not 'softly' blaming Mark, I'm saying it out loud.
The whole DS experience was pretty miserable, not just because of Mark, but one or two other things that went down.
Half the band wouldn't talk to me at rehearsals, apparently because their favourite choice of new drummer wasn't me.
Early in rehearsals we started learning 'Walk Of Life' and about a verse and chorus in Mark kept stopping us and would turn to me and say rather angrily "you're slowing down". I've never been a slowing down drummer. As a professional I try to keep a steady tempo, but if anything I had a tendency to slightly speed up. After a` day of this I was in despair and it was actually good old Danny Cummings who saved the day. he said, why don't you bring in a drum machine tomorrow, play along with that and we'll get to the bottom if this.
So yeah, we did that, we all agreed a tempo, we started to play 'Walk Of Life' and Mark and several others were like greyhounds chasing a rabbit.
Case closed.
Both Pick and Terry were speeding up drummers and because I was a steady drummer it was assumed I was slowing down.
Anyway, if you are locked in an unpleasant situation for more than a year, almost every day of every week, sure.... I lost my love of drumming, I lost my confidence, I started to dislike guitar based rock.
You can think what you like, but the reality is I put my drums in a storage facility and rarely played through most of the 1990's and most of the 2000's, really only going back to drumming around 2016 when I hooked up with Chris White and DSE.
I gotta be honest, I don’t think your style matched the DS vibe, but it doesn’t make a lesser drummer of you. You played with Paul McCartney, for God’s sake. Of course you were young and all that but Mark hired you for a reason, he must’ve seen you play hundreds of times before approaching you, that’s all you needed to know to ease your mind. If he was unhappy with Manu, Jeff and you the problem was obviously him, not the drummers.
I must say that after listening to the Dublin bootleg from that tour your playing with DS grew on me, felt like you’d been unleashed, the arrangements weren’t so tight like on the official recordings.
All that being said, as a Christian (no pun intended) I think it’s time to make peace with rough times and perhaps reach out to the man himself and have a good talk. He seems different now.
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All that being said, as a Christian (no pun intended) I think it’s time to make peace with rough times and perhaps reach out to the man himself and have a good talk. He seems different now.
I honestly have no need. Of course he could have reached out to me and apologised (for the blatant bullying) at any point over the last 30+ years. It's not up to ME.
I did a tour playing drums last year and it couldn't have been more different. The artist praised my playing every single night. The crew would often compliment me. After the last show the whole band thanked me and said what a fantastic job I'd done.
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I gotta be honest, I don’t think your style matched the DS vibe, but it doesn’t make a lesser drummer of you.
I never wanted to play or sound like Pick or Terry. I was very much of the Omar Hakim, Jeff Porcaro school and held them up as idols I would like to emulate, as much as I could. They were mostly responsible for the BIA drumming and OES. So I eventually accepted the gig thinking it would be fun to play songs that had been recorded by Hakim and Porcaro. But it didn't quite work out like that.
I knew it was a very long tour and I knew about Mark's 'difficult' reputation, so I turned down the tour a few times before eventually agreeing.
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I gotta be honest, I don’t think your style matched the DS vibe, but it doesn’t make a lesser drummer of you.
I never wanted to play or sound like Pick or Terry. I was very much of the Omar Hakim, Jeff Porcaro school and held them up as idols I would like to emulate, as much as I could. They were mostly responsible for the BIA drumming and OES. So I eventually accepted the gig thinking it would be fun to play songs that had been recorded by Hakim and Porcaro. But it didn't quite work out like that.
I knew it was a very long tour and I knew about Mark's 'difficult' reputation, so I turned down the tour a few times before eventually agreeing.
Honest question. What if you had stood up or even walked away? Did the contract prevented you from doing that? I’m a very cold and practical person so I’d probably focus on the paycheck and carry on but if it got to the point I couldn’t handle it without going off I like to think I’d give them the middle finger and dart out. I’m not judging your approach, just to make it clear, I obviously don’t know what had been signed and especially the financial context.
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All that being said, as a Christian (no pun intended) I think it’s time to make peace with rough times and perhaps reach out to the man himself and have a good talk. He seems different now.
I honestly have no need. Of course he could have reached out to me and apologised (for the blatant bullying) at any point over the last 30+ years. It's not up to ME.
I did a tour playing drums last year and it couldn't have been more different. The artist praised my playing every single night. The crew would often compliment me. After the last show the whole band thanked me and said what a fantastic job I'd done.
Perhaps he feels bad about his actions during that period and doesn’t want to revisit it. I don’t know.
I wonder what the atmosphere was like during the tours with EC.
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I've moved on - professionally.
I've worked at British Grove a couple of times and Mark wasn't there either time.
I'm happy not to see anyone from that time period, except Chris White who I see regularly.
(And Ed, who wasn't really around on the tour and I would not hold responsible for any of Mark or the band's behaviour).
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Hang on a minute… Dusty is actually Ed Bicknell? WTF lol
What am I missing here?!
I'm not Ed Bicknell, he has a much better haircut than me.
Ed has kindly been sending messages to myself and Jules over the last year to post on the forum, have a look through them, a TON of great stuff!
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The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
I'm not 'softly' blaming Mark, I'm saying it out loud.
The whole DS experience was pretty miserable, not just because of Mark, but one or two other things that went down.
Half the band wouldn't talk to me at rehearsals, apparently because their favourite choice of new drummer wasn't me.
Early in rehearsals we started learning 'Walk Of Life' and about a verse and chorus in Mark kept stopping us and would turn to me and say rather angrily "you're slowing down". I've never been a slowing down drummer. As a professional I try to keep a steady tempo, but if anything I had a tendency to slightly speed up. After a` day of this I was in despair and it was actually good old Danny Cummings who saved the day. he said, why don't you bring in a drum machine tomorrow, play along with that and we'll get to the bottom if this.
So yeah, we did that, we all agreed a tempo, we started to play 'Walk Of Life' and Mark and several others were like greyhounds chasing a rabbit.
Case closed.
Both Pick and Terry were speeding up drummers and because I was a steady drummer it was assumed I was slowing down.
Anyway, if you are locked in an unpleasant situation for more than a year, almost every day of every week, sure.... I lost my love of drumming, I lost my confidence, I started to dislike guitar based rock.
You can think what you like, but the reality is I put my drums in a storage facility and rarely played through most of the 1990's and most of the 2000's, really only going back to drumming around 2016 when I hooked up with Chris White and DSE.
This is an absolute disgrace. Shame on them.
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I've moved on - professionally.
I've worked at British Grove a couple of times and Mark wasn't there either time.
I'm happy not to see anyone from that time period, except Chris White who I see regularly.
(And Ed, who wasn't really around on the tour and I would not hold responsible for any of Mark or the band's behaviour).
Hasn’t Chris White worked with Mark a few times after that tour? I’m pretty sure he plays sax on In the Sky.
Anyway, I’m glad you’re in a good place now. I hope you didn’t take my ‘criticism’ personally, it was never about you as a drummer in general but as a DS drummer, which are two completely different things. As for the other members who didn’t treat you right because they wanted another guy, they should’ve got pissed at whoever left their mate out, not at you. And last but not least, Danny is the coolest.
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Oh by the way, almost forgot… considering I’ve been expelled for no apparent reason from a certain other forum by its owner I think I know exactly who one of the a-holes was.
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Chris is NOT!! coming to Germany with The The this summer.. dates are out today. Hamburg Elbphilharmonie very special venue! Just check it out.
LE
Edit: The are touring Germany but not with Chris, I was wrong in posting it
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Again....and again....and again.
It's not a personal battle. It is ONLY about correcting misinformation, untruths and guess work.
That's it. End of story.
I honestly don't care wether someone I don't know and will never meet thinks I'm the 'worst drummer Dire Straits ever had'. I called out someone on the forum for personal comments about my mental state etc, etc...
It's ok for someone to not enjoy a musician's work. It isn't to speculate about their mental state or personality....while that is on a public forum that the person being talked about can read.
I read this entire thread and it’s exhausting… everyone wants to be right when it’s mostly opinions (fellow forum members) on facts (musician and manager). I have no problem accepting that Mark wasn’t exactly friendly and gentle as well as I understand it’s not right to judge without knowing what might have triggered it. The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
The thread is exhausting because it probably doesn't meet your criteria/agenda. That's the go-to answer when people who don't like what's going down want to change the narrative as it doesn't suit them. "I'm bored of this..." is another one or even "let's lock this thread."
Yeah really. That's what happened in terms of the decade break. According to the man himself Chris Whitten, drummer for Dire Straits 1991-1992. I don't doubt him at all. In fact as i've mentioned in other posts I reckon he could be underplaying things a tad... that's natural for humans to kind of reconfigure and forget the really bad stuff. Also to give people the benefit of the doubt etc. But I could be wrong. That's my opinion. I can't be sure like you can't be... only Chris can be of his own opinions and how he saw things unfold in the early 90's.
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The only thing I can’t help commenting on is Chris softly blaming Mark for taking a ten year break from drumming. Come on, mate. Really? Apart from that it’s kind of surreal interacting with someone I watched playing over a thousand times on that VHS.
I'm not 'softly' blaming Mark, I'm saying it out loud.
The whole DS experience was pretty miserable, not just because of Mark, but one or two other things that went down.
Half the band wouldn't talk to me at rehearsals, apparently because their favourite choice of new drummer wasn't me.
Early in rehearsals we started learning 'Walk Of Life' and about a verse and chorus in Mark kept stopping us and would turn to me and say rather angrily "you're slowing down". I've never been a slowing down drummer. As a professional I try to keep a steady tempo, but if anything I had a tendency to slightly speed up. After a` day of this I was in despair and it was actually good old Danny Cummings who saved the day. he said, why don't you bring in a drum machine tomorrow, play along with that and we'll get to the bottom if this.
So yeah, we did that, we all agreed a tempo, we started to play 'Walk Of Life' and Mark and several others were like greyhounds chasing a rabbit.
Case closed.
Both Pick and Terry were speeding up drummers and because I was a steady drummer it was assumed I was slowing down.
Anyway, if you are locked in an unpleasant situation for more than a year, almost every day of every week, sure.... I lost my love of drumming, I lost my confidence, I started to dislike guitar based rock.
You can think what you like, but the reality is I put my drums in a storage facility and rarely played through most of the 1990's and most of the 2000's, really only going back to drumming around 2016 when I hooked up with Chris White and DSE.
I gotta be honest, I don’t think your style matched the DS vibe, but it doesn’t make a lesser drummer of you. You played with Paul McCartney, for God’s sake. Of course you were young and all that but Mark hired you for a reason, he must’ve seen you play hundreds of times before approaching you, that’s all you needed to know to ease your mind. If he was unhappy with Manu, Jeff and you the problem was obviously him, not the drummers.
I must say that after listening to the Dublin bootleg from that tour your playing with DS grew on me, felt like you’d been unleashed, the arrangements weren’t so tight like on the official recordings.
All that being said, as a Christian (no pun intended) I think it’s time to make peace with rough times and perhaps reach out to the man himself and have a good talk. He seems different now.
I disagree regarding the sound. It was spot on for the era and for the vibe. Chris actually for me personally lifted some of those songs and improved them.
You do though make a good point regarding Manu/Jeff.
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I can’t be wrong, it’s an opinion on a subjective topic.
Won’t even answer your first comment, you’re so far off it seems pointless to try.
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Chris is coming to Germany with The The this summer.. dates are out today.
I am not.
I filled in for their regular drummer Earl for the tour at the end of 2024. Earl is back onboard.
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The drumming style doesn't matter. It's water under the bridge now.
For me, speeding up is a bad habit for drummers. Previous DS drummers sped up when playing live.
At mark's say so, I ended up playing too many busy drum parts and allowing myself to speed up. That is the drumming they were used to. While I assumed as they had used rock steady studio professionals like Omar Hakim and Jeff Porcaro on the previous two albums that was their ideal.
Steady time keeping and stripped back performances.
I was wrong.
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Chris is coming to Germany with The The this summer.. dates are out today.
I am not.
I filled in for their regular drummer Earl for the tour at the end of 2024. Earl is back onboard.
Oh sorry then for spreading wrong Information. The ad showed a video clip with you on drums and off I went. I will edit my post.
LE
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Oh, I haven't seen that ad.
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I can’t be wrong, it’s an opinion on a subjective topic.
Won’t even answer your first comment, you’re so far off it seems pointless to try.
:lol
Of course you won't answer my first comment. It's far too factual and against your own personal narrative.
Best wishes.
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I can’t be wrong, it’s an opinion on a subjective topic.
Won’t even answer your first comment, you’re so far off it seems pointless to try.
:lol
Of course you won't answer my first comment. It's far too factual and against your own personal narrative.
Best wishes.
You got me, mate. Guilty.
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Cilla Black (big pop star in the 60s) was an awful person by multiple accounts.
Ed mentioned that Gerry Rafferty was difficult to work with but an alcoholic an undiagnosed bipolar.
I guess quite a ton of artists are difficult to work with, probably most of them, and that's actually to be expected. As many of you know, the average intelligence level of human beings is pretty low, so I wouldn't expect everybody to act as ladies and gentlemen, especially people with a lot of money and power. In fact, in most cases, money and fame will just show you what this person was all about, it doesn't change a person.
And in another act of defending Mark, you don't need to be Einstein to know it wasn't money or fame that turned Mark into a "bully", the guy just got haunted by bad luck.
Finally! A sense of humour emerges .
Yep. I think being “difficult” is almost a requirement but being a total dick is NOT, as always in the human condition, it’s a matter of degree.
Now. You have COMPLETELY lost me.
“ Bad luck ”? What bad luck?
On life's scales his good luck outweighs the bad massively.
Your knowledge of M’s personality is impressive given you’ve never met him as far as I know.
Don’t understand that comment at all.
I see nearly ALL "bad" things that Mark did as reasonable.
I guess English isn't your first language.
You claim not to be dismissing 'the victims', you claim not to be arguing with the facts.
I'm not claiming anything. I'm just having fun on a fan forum while enjoying some pineapple juice. There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who think words on a fan forum are set in stone and will reverberate for eternity. And those who think it's a platform for sharing opinions, digging for deeper meanings, finding hidden gems.
If you want to declare a 100% truth, no problem, write a book. But even so, it will only be like just your opinion, man. What is the truth, anyway? I've witnessed so many times people who WERE THERE straight up telling lies. Only because you were there doesn't mean your opinion is the only opinion in the world.
The human factor is still there. You can forget things, you can misinterpret things, you can dislike a person, but you can not stop people from having different opinions. And I never dismissed information from people who were there, I just expressed how I see the situation. My sincerest apologies for any errors in my speech and any misunderstandings that may arise as a result for I am no native English speaker.
Sometimes Pavel, you disappear up your own arse in your search for fun.…what Chris is saying, what I’m saying, is that we were there, in my case for the whole DS ride, and neither of us is in the habit of telling lies or making things up, we don't need to.
Opinions are fine but they need to be based on facts, on actualities , yours are based on nothing or am I missing something? .
And in another act of defending Mark, you don't need to be Einstein to know it wasn't money or fame that turned Mark into a "bully", the guy just got haunted by bad luck.
Eh? There's no doubt that MK had/has a huge amount of talent but I'm sure he would admit he had a huge amount of luck along the way as well.
EXACTLY!
In my (actual) experience, many artists are pretty nice and reasonable. Of course they have their off days.
One thing that turns artists from humble to egotistical is selling millions of records and winning lots of accolades, but it doesn't always damage them.
I agree. 90% of the artists I've worked with have been positive experiences….creative, great people , intelligent, kind, funny, really interesting, many verbally disgusting ( great ) , but some for sure have gone from all of that to being narcissistic wankers because of fame, money and celebrity, and THEN come out the other end when they realise…or someone they respect tells them….it’s all a load of crap.
I wonder if Roger Waters respects anyone ……
What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Because somebody started this bloody thread and because John DeChristopher brought up Heavy Fuel to some French drummer who’s smile when he did said EVERYTHING.
I had to chuckle at that .
I’m 100% sure that most musicians would rather not have been “ upset and run ”…..money alone is not compensation for being treated badly in any workplace let alone the creative arts.
So did they really “win”?
Dear Chris, I'm not arguing, and somehow, you always find ways to stab me with your umbrella. Years go by, and I'm still waiting for the moment when Chris will finally say at least a single nice word about me ;D Who's bullying?
Mate. Chris has spent his life working as a pro musician, has a ton of insight about the workings of top-tier bands, and lived through an era of the band that we could otherwise only speculate about. Yet you're constantly contradicting his posts!
Chris, Manu, Ed, and MK's dentist have all made it clear that he could be a very difficult person to deal with. A lot of very ambitions, high-achieving people are. Having that information (and accepting it) is what makes forums like this valuable and entertaining, otherwise they just become deluded circle jerks.
LOVE IT!!! M’s dentist or “ how to get a front cover on The Sun in one easy lesson”.
Someone who accepts that AMIT is 90% speculation and 10% inspiration.
You really do know all the chords don’t you?
What is the point in dissing people decades after the event?
Manu didn't enjoy the session but got the job done,got paid and refused the tour.
Mark created a decent album and live show,continued to be unreasonable and didn't get what he wanted for dinner.
All the musicians got paid well and those he upset took that money and run.
Everyone "won."
Deary deary me. What a laughable post.
First of all do you expect Chris or Manu to just lie?
Secondly - taking the money and run? So I suppose you would stop in the middle of a tour and stand your ground, leave, not get paid your full
payment leaving you in limbo yet nothing changes going forward with regards to the tour environment or worst still you leave forcing the tour to be cancelled? Blame falls on you and I bet as a fan you wouldn't have been happy with that last scenario.
Deal with the facts. MK is one of my top 4 guitarists of all time and 2 of DS albums in my top 10. It doesn't mean i'm deluded. It doesn't make him a hero or a saint. In fact it all makes sense with regards to the ins and outs and comings and goings regarding DS.
You have expressed so much better than I did a really valid point AND you “get it” ( your last para ….).
What Chris and I have been aiming at is for someone…anyone…to say “ it all makes sense ..re the comings and goings”.
Hally fucking loo yah.
AND a quiz. I love a quiz. 3 more guitarists for us to guess at….Erica Clapped Out? Jimi Hendrix? Stevie Ray Vaughan? Hank Marvin? David Gilmour? Gary Clark Jnr. Susan Tedeschi? Guitar George? Steve Luthaker? Chet Atkins? Scotty Moore? The bloke who played “ Wipeout”?
Am I warm?
MESSAGE FOR ED REGARDING MY 4 TOP GUITARIST LIST....
You did well to mention one of them... and whilst Hendrix, Gilmour are both up there in the top 20 you were right with Lukather. What a talent, and a smashing session musician. Have you come across him btw?
The others i'm sure you'd have heard of...
1. Jimmy Page
2. Michael Schenker
3. Mark Knopfler
4. Steve Lukather
The beauty about all four... all play different guitars, sound completely different etc. Added bonus... my guitarists from 5-10:
5. Bruce John Dickinson (not the Iron Maiden singer, this guy played guitars for Little Angels, a 90's brit-rock band but he went onto form/open up various music schools including BIMM (In Brighton) and ACM (In Guildford) Top musician, in fact ex Little Angels members also went onto feature in Skunk Anansie/Feeder (Mark Richardson), Page/Plant (Michael Lee RIP - What a drummer and should have been the player at the Led Zep reunion gig imho), Mark Plunkettt (Boyzone/Ronan Keating manager.) The lead singer and main composure Toby Jepson has his own slot on Planet Rock. Top songwriter/producer.
6. Joe Satriani
7. Dean DeLeo (Stone Temple Pilots)
8. Vernon Reid (Living Colour)
9. Paul Kossoff (Free)
10. Nuno Bettencourt (Extreme)
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Too Much Too Young by Little Angels is a fantastic record!
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Too Much Too Young by Little Angels is a fantastic record!
Love the fact you've heard of them. That's a cracking track / single btw. Bryan Adams was on backing vocals. If you haven't already done so please listen to the album that track is from called "Jam." Really good production and musicianship. Superb. One of the last albums to have been partly recorded at Air Studios in Oxford Street. The album actually reached number 1 in the UK album charts back in 1993. Interestingly their drummer who had replaced Michael Lee - Mark Richardson - who'd go onto play with Feeder and Skunk Anansie, was deemed too green to play the whole album (he was about 22 at the time) so they brought in Elvis Costello's drummer Pete Thomas to play the majority of it. Mark could have thrown his toys of the pram but apparently he stuck with it and learnt from the master so to speak. In the long run it did him more good than harm. So there you go. Very on topic what with Chris Whitton having played on numerous tracks as a session musician replacing the drummer who may have even been credited yet didn't perform. Pete Thomas btw was thanked in the credits, but if it wasn't for Mark being honest about it in an interview around 10 years ago we'd have never known. It's something that happens more often than not. Obviously we have our own Terry Williams who was replaced on BIA. He was so humble about it as well.
Also I had a little Q and A with the Little Angels guitarist Bruce John Dickinson and he has similar guitar heroes like Page, Schenker and Knopfler! I remember hearing bits of Mk when Bruce swapped his Gibson for a fender for a lot of the Jam album. I love artists like that, not sticking to just one guitar or amp, but mixing it up. Mark was really good at that between the Making Movies/Love Over Gold/BIA and OES albums and the same with one of my other guitar heroes the Stone Temple Pilots guitarist Dean Deleo.
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I actually bought Jam the week it came out so I contributed to the number 1 album, ha! It's sitting in my pile of CDs here in my office. Can't say I've listened for a while to be fair.
Interesting about Pete Thomas. I'm currently reading a Nick Lowe biography and PT is all over that but I wouldn't have associated him with Little Angels. Great drums on Too Much Too Young though.
There is a joint MK/ T Bone Burnett interview from about 1985, it used to be on Tomas Molin's site but I can't find it anywhere now. T Bone says he thinks there are only two or three drummers in the world who are good enough to play on record and MK says something like "I'm really pleased to hear someone else say that, I agree". And then I heard Steve Earle years later referring to the interview and saying how much that statement annoyed him, ha ha. Ironically T Bone produced a Steve Earle album in 2011 and brought in his own drummer :)
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Never understood how MK always played down his own guitar playing but was so harsh about drummers. Why would that be something he repeatetly cared to mention?
LE
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"It takes a very good drummer to be better than no drummer at all", MK said in 2006. I actually like this one, funny. Same level as "Ringo is not even the best drummer in the Beatles, let alone in the world"...
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"It takes a very good drummer to be better than no drummer at all", MK said in 2006. I actually like this one, funny. Same level as "Ringo is not even the best drummer in the Beatles, let alone in the world"...
It’s a weird one this. I remember that quote and thought it was odd when I first heard it.
Does that mean every drummer who tours or records professionally is a “very good drummer?”
Or does this just highlight Mark’s perfectionist nature?
Hasn’t Guy played drums on a handful of recordings? (Neck and Neck?)
Does this mean Guy is a very good drummer? Probably is knowing Guy……
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"It takes a very good drummer to be better than no drummer at all", MK said in 2006. I actually like this one, funny. Same level as "Ringo is not even the best drummer in the Beatles, let alone in the world"...
The Ringo quote was debunked long ago.
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"It takes a very good drummer to be better than no drummer at all", MK said in 2006. I actually like this one, funny. Same level as "Ringo is not even the best drummer in the Beatles, let alone in the world"...
The Ringo quote was debunked long ago.
Yeah, but still funny.
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Hasn’t Guy played drums on a handful of recordings? (Neck and Neck?)
Does this mean Guy is a very good drummer? Probably is knowing Guy……
He’s programmed the drums, so no he doesn’t play drums on recordings.
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Yeah, but still funny.
Not at all. Ringo is widely regarded as a great drummer and a pioneer.
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Yeah, but still funny.
Not at all. Ringo is widely regarded as a great drummer and a pioneer.
To be fair on the subject, Ringo has also some detractors, on top of the list the late Quincy Jones and Buddy Rich, and the still alive Bernard Purdie.
And you can't say these are "nobodies". They have discredited him in interviews.
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To be fair on the subject, Ringo has also some detractors, on top of the list the late Quincy Jones and Buddy Rich, and the still alive Bernard Purdie.
And you can't say these are "nobodies". They have discredited him in interviews.
Some people didn't 'get' The Beatles, especially musicians from a traditional jazz background. Elvis felt threatened by The Beatles success and tried to discredit them at the time.
Purdie has been gone over a gazillion times. fact is, for some bizarre personal reason he made up a mad, bullshit story about playing with The Beatles and has had to double down, triple down on it ever since - which leads to having to discredit Ringo. Way MORE musicians appreciate Ringo than don't.
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Haha, yeah, the discussion if Ringo is a bad drummer drummer is so hilarious. Just let any other drummer play "She Said, She Said"; it will never sound as cool as Ringo. Such a musical drummer, very creative parts.
Zoning out on the subject; what is 'good' or 'bad' in music anyway? You like it -> it's good. You don't like it, but someone else does like it-> so it's good.
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Chris, I’m no drummer, but isn’t it fair to say that no other drummer was creating parts like this for pop songs in 1965?
https://youtu.be/vl9188EPdLI?si=Vt15MvClg_04kLOG
Did you have to adjust your style to accommodate left hand fills etc when playing the classics on the Macca tour?
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Yes, Ringo was both unique and trail blazing.
On the tour I tended to play my own fills, but keeping in the style of Ringo.
The drum solo in The End does require some odd sticking though.